Can anyone place roughly when Klosowski was in Whitechapel?

[Chris]

I'm thinking that this guy could be 'Max Starke' on the 1901 census at London City, born 1871, aged 30, wife Tilly aged 28, children Easter (Esther) aged 2, and Emilia aged 1.
He was married to Tilly Gluckstein at Whitechapel (March book) 1897.
By 1911, he was saying he was 38, born 1873, and had another daughter Lily aged 6.

I would guess that this may be the record of his naturalisation:
HO 144/1303/248206 Nationality and Naturalisation: Starke, Max, from Russia. Resident in London. Certificate 25008 issued 21 April 1914.

[Natalie Severn]

re The logistics of such a "squeezed timeline"!

Well Adam,one thing we know for certain about Chapman is that he moved about a great deal!
But I have always found it difficult myself to work out when, exactly, he arrived even in Whitechapel.
We can trace Post office Directories for the one year- 1888 that the Radin"s appear to have had a lease for their barber shop and lodgings in West India Dock Road.
We can see that Klosowski took a lease out for his barber shop in Cable St. for 1889 and in order to do make sure his address was in the Post Office Directories he would have had to have done so by mid December at the very latest----the official final date for 1889 entries was December 2nd but possibly there was a weeks leeway.
So we have him at West India Dock Road for 5 months in 1888.Maybe it was the beginning of 1888? Then we have Levisohn asserting in court he met him in the basement of the White Hart Pub on Whitechapel High Street in 1888---adding later in court that he used to see him regularly between 1888 and 1890.[Levisohn had been in the UK many years by 1888]. So if we take Levisohn "s court statement into account-which,it has been pointed out to me, could well have been a wrong time memory after 15 years ]- we have him in Limehouse, then Whitechapel-possibly at the George Yard address Abberline and Neil refer to in 1903 and 1932 respectively.Then later in 1888 we have him either living in Cable Street or sounding it out for his Barber shop lease.
Now I remain convinced that the Cranbrook Street address was his first address here ---which was why he wrote Severin Klosowski and not one of his other names-he used several---and its close to the Docks.
But whether he lodged there in 1887 or 1888 I have no idea.
I suspect he packed his bags and set of for the UK not long after February 1887 when he had gathered his papers together .But this is based, like your information, on weak sources.The only concrete evidence we have is that all the records from Poland ceased in February 1887. One very able researcher who used to post on these boards by the name of RJ Palmer found what we "think" was the sailing he took to New York with his wife Lucy---written as "Any" in 1891---June,I believe it was.But nobody so far has been able to trace the date of arrival in the UK from Poland.

But yes, I agree 1888 is very cramped.Maybe it was indeed Levisohn who got it wrong in his court testimony but I myself doubt it.This is because Levisohn is specific about him not being married when he first knew him in 1888, at that time he was living by himself -Court testimony [Klosowski married in October 1889].Levison goes into some detail about his wife and the "two children" that Levisohn says they later had ---only they did not, because up to 1890 when Levisohn said he knew him in Whitechapel ,they did not have a child let alone two, their baby was born some time in 1890 and he died in March 1891 .Their next child was born in May 1892 when Lucy ran away in terror from Klosowski after he had threatened to "cut her head off" during their brief stay in New York.But Levisohn,at the trial in 1903, led off about the way he perceived "Klosowski"s wife" was being badly treated by Klosowski, and this defintely looks like Levisohn is mixing up dates and possibly referring to much later on in Tottenham.He stated btw, that Chapman/Klosowski and he lost touch between the years 1890 and 1894.

[Adam Went]

Nats:

Yes unfortunately we don't have a lot of reliable information to work with on this topic....

If we assume for a moment that he arrived in London in July 1888, and his first address was Cranbrook street - even if he was only there for a month, as a base minimum, and then he went to stay with the Radin's in West India Dock Road in August 1888, and he was with them for the full 5 months.....he must have either moved or known he was going to move to Cable Street at the very start of December, but for that timeline to fit, he had to have stayed with the Radin's until January 1889.....then gone to Cable Street.....that doesn't really sound right. To me anyway.

And another thing.....IIRC, we both believe Klosowski was quite possibly JTR. If that was the case, it means he was carrying out these murders while he was lodging with the Radin's! Not in his own place at 126 Cable Street! Now, that being the case, surely the Radin's would have become suspicious of his late night activities, particularly on the nights of the murders? Surely they would have asked some questions? Yet I don't believe there was ever any mention of this on their part.

No, it makes more sense for Severin to be living in Cable Street during the time of the murders. So I think the best possible conclusion, flimsy as it is, is that Mrs. Radin was confused with Bank Holiday 1887, that Severin arrived in June-July 1887, which as I mentioned before fits his Polish records and what Arthur Neil recalled....that he stayed in Cranbrook street for a period of time....then lodged with the Radin's until some time during the early-middle months of 1888, then went to Cable Street.....

What do you think?

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

The importance of the Post Office Directories of 1888 and 1889.

Adam,
I believe we have "three "clues" that are independent of people"s testimony at Klosowki"s trial:

1] The first clue we have are the papers Klosowski brought from Poland which cover his date of birth, and are really his CV up until February 1887 .After this date there is nothing from Poland .Therefore it seems likely that he left Poland soon after February 1887. It seems quite possible that he then set sail for the UK not too long afterwards because we pick up his trail again,not in Poland or anywhere else but only in the UK in 1888 .

2] We then have an address in West India Dock Road where we know he stayed with Mr and Mrs Radin who had a barber shop there and employed Klosowski and gave him lodgings for about five months in 1888 .
How can we check this out?
Well the Post Office Directory of 1888 has the Radins at West India Dock Road for one year only ie 1888 so the five months that Klosowski stayed with them must have been in 1888.

3]Next we have The Post Office Directory of 1889 giving Severin Klosowski"s address as 126 Cable Street-where Klosowski took out a lease for a barber shop.
In order to get the entry in in time for the 1889 Post Office Directory Klosowski had to have registered his name before December 1888. so we can be pretty sure he was looking to this address at least in November 1888 in order to be able to obtain the necessary lease for it.
[will check something and come back to this shortly]

[Natalie Severn]

So Adam,
It appears to me that the Cranbrook Street address was the first, after his arrival here ,since he writes his name not as George Chapman which he used from the beginning of 1895 ,but as Severin Klosowski and he wrote it in the little Polish Medical book he had brought with him from Poland some time after the end of February, 1887. Nothing is certain however about this.He could have gone backwards and forwards in addresses in the middle of 1888 for example, first staying with the Radins,early in 1888 for five months upon arrival here,next going off to George Yard,Whitechapel High Street , where Abberline and Neil claimed he lived in August 1888 [no proof whatever of that ,only their statements].He could then have returned to Dockland and stayed at Cranbrook St while later on in 1888 looking around for a leaseheld Barber shop in the Cable Street area -found number 126 Cable St and taken out a lease for it and then entered it as his address in 1888 without living there immediately----this latter most unlikely though ,since he wouldnt surely have been so overflowing with spare cash that he would have wanted to pay rent on two places at once?

Those are the dates to hold onto though Adam, the two Post Office Directory ones and the last known records of him being in Poland dated February 1887.
Cheers
Norma

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Yes I think a little bit of logic combined with the information that you've posted up should tell us that Mrs. Radin was mistaken for the Bank Holiday the previous year, and that Klosowski arrived during the middle months of 1887. It is simply too cramped to be possible for him to have stayed with the Radin's for 5 months if he didn't arrive until just before Bank Holiday, August 1888, then still have his address registed as Cable Street by December of the same year.

It would be interesting to know just how long he spent living at Cranbrook Street. That could help make things a little clearer, but as it is, the above surely seems like the most likely scenario. After all, Mrs. Radin was talking 15 years after the fact, and could easily have been mistaken, especially when combined with all the talk of the possible link of Klosowski to JTR by Abberline & Co during the time of his trial. Memories can easily become faded and intertwined with other memories.

If only we could find some record of his passage from Poland to England....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Adam,
Regarding the information Wolf Vanderlinden posted earlier on this thread.
The Thomson"s Weekly article by Norman Hastings of June 1930 and that Wolf quotes from, refers apparently to the " not named" Ethel Radin.



I wonder whether its possible that Mr Hastings has received this information ,not from the "unnamed" Ethel Radin, but from Klosowski"s sister in law , who was Lucy"s sister, her name being Mrs Stanislaus Baderski.
Here is my reason:
At The Trial of George Chapman in 1903, Stanislaus Baderski, her husband,goes into quite specific detail in his testimony about An August Bank Holiday Party held NOT in 1888 but in August 1889 !
Now this remark by Klosowski"s brother in law, is most confusing regarding our time line for he states the following in court :

I was not at their wedding but I went to the party in the evening after it. The accused and my sister were present at the party .It was on the August Bank Holiday 1889 .

Now this cannot be true because his sister Lucy Baderski and Severin Klosowski were married NOT on August Bank Holiday but on October 29 th 1889 [Both Neil Sheldon and Sam Flynn have looked into this in depth ].
Clearly the time gap of 15 years has distorted his memory of what happened when.Perhaps the August Bank Holiday Party referred to in his Court Testimony was actually an "engagement party"?
Anyway, I wonder if there has been a mix up all round and the remark allocated to Mrs Radin was in fact made by Mr Baderski and repeated by Mrs Baderski later ,in good faith possibly , but demonstrating that Klosowski could not have been MarthaT abram"s killer?
Don"t forget it was during his trial in 1903 that Abberline alleged Klosowski had actually lived in George Yard at the time of Martha Tabram"s murder.["The fact that Klosowski when he came to reside in this country occupied a lodging in George Yard , Whitechapel Road where the first murder was committed ,is very curious...."-Abberline to Pall Mall Gazette Reporter March 1903 .Well Adam, it may not have been a "fact" but clearly Abberline had heard this from somewhere!]
It makes some sense because although the Baderski"s did not shy away from giving evidence in court,about the murder of Maud Marsh which he was being tried for ,they did not in actual fact give any evidence against him and they "may have" been unhappy to have their brother in law and father of Lucy"s child, associated with Jack the Ripper !

[Natalie Severn]

re the mention of an August Bank Holiday Party by an unnamed source

I wrote in my above post about a party that took place during the August Bank Holiday of 1889 .
I suggested that since it was mentioned by Klosowski"s brother in law Stanislaus Baderski, during the former"s trial for murder,it was being recalled well after the actual event -probably in fact 13 or 14 years after the event .I suggested too that the August Bank Holiday Party of 1888, when Martha Tabram was murdered, and the August Bank Holiday party in 1889 that Baderski referred to ,may have got muddled up in people"s minds with the passage of time.
However, it would be helpful to know more about how Wolf Vanderlinden"s source, a "criminologist" named Mr Neville Hastings, came to acquire the information regarding the August Bank Holiday Party .he referred to in his article back in 1929.
Adam has asked me several times about it and I have also had pm"s from others asking me what I thought about it but without more information I am unable to decide what to think, except, as I said above, the passage of time may be responsible for people muddling up events .

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Well it certainly seems like just a big mash up into one of a variety of events that took place. Apparently the August Bank Holiday was quite a busy time!

Sugden, who is always a reliable source of information, seems to agree that Klosowski arrived in England most likely around mid-1887. He also says that Klosowski didn't meet Lucy Baderski until mid-1889 (July or August 1889, shortly after the Alice Mackenzie murder, IIRC.) Now if we assume that was the case, and I think the weight of evidence combined with a bit of common sense does this, it means that Severin was in London, and was single, for the entire crucial year of 1888. It also means that, given the murders were committed in the latter quarter of the year and he had only stayed with the Radin's in West India Dock Road for 5 months, that he spent the time during the murders at his lodgings at 126 Cable Street, rather than with the Radin's or in Cranbrook Street. I'm not sure either about this reference to George Yard, it probably did have something to do with muddled memories about the party on the date of Martha Tabram's murder.

And yes, it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion that the Baderski's wouldn't have wanted to be associated with the man who could potentially be Jack the Ripper. Especially in 1903, when the series of murders would still have been in the lifetime and fresh in the minds of the vast majority of the public.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Adam,
At George Chapman"s trial from both the testimony of Stanislaus Baderski Lucy"s brother and Lucy"s sister ,Mrs Stanislaus Rauch , the court understood the couple met in the Summer of 1889.Stanislaus is more specific:The accused and my sister met at the Polish Club.They kept company together for four or five weeks then they were married----he goes on to talk of them being at the August Bank Holiday Party, but then gets his dates mixed up, suggesting they were married on August Bank Holiday 1889 ---and thats not quite right.They were married on 29th October 1889 and we have seen copies of their marriage certificate. Anyway, they clearly met several weeks before their marriage in 1889.
Cheers
Norma

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Seems like a fairly brief courtship period then.
I think the interesting part about that is the closeness of the murder of Alice Mackenzie to the meeting between Klosowski and Baderski. I'm sort of on the fence about whether she was a Ripper victim or not, but it kind of would make sense if Severin was JTR that if he saw on the near horizon that he would be in a relationship, something which he hadn't needed to deal with during the autumn of 1888, that he may not have been able to go out late at night or return at odd hours without attracting suspicion to himself, that he would take the life of one more victim before being drawn into a different sort of lifestyle. Probably not, but the timing is just very interesting.....do you have any thoughts on Mackenzie as a JTR victim?

One has to feel quite sorry for Lucy Baderski, getting herself into what she did.....although in a way she was lucky, atleast she lived to tell the tale - 3 of his other women weren't so fortunate.

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Adam,
Thanks for that.With regards to Alice Mckenzie the answer is I dont know. I tend to stick with the reports on the murders by the divisional police surgeons, mostly Phillips but also Dr Brown, whose opinion on the Mitre Square victim,Kate Eddowes, I prefer to accept ,than that of Dr Phillip"s, simply because Brown was required to write a post mortem report for the Inquest and it was very through .In this instance Dr Phillips does not appear to have been required to do so,it being outside H division.
Dr Bond disagreed with Dr Phillips over the question of whether Alice McKenzie was a ripper victim. Dr Bond thought she was, Dr Phillips thought not. Its possible, Adam.
I dont think Klosowski met Lucy Baderski until around July/August1889, at the Polish club.I tend to think the August Bank Holiday Party of 1889 was an engagement party because of the way it is remembered by Stanislaus as being connected with their wedding.
Best
Norma

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Dr. Phillips is dodgy, IMO. Very dodgy. He gave the wrong time of death for Annie Chapman, out by a reasonable distance infact. He gave a slightly earlier time of death for Liz Stride than the first doctor on the scene, Dr. Blackwell, when the available testimony and evidence tells us that Blackwell was just about spot on. He had some controversial ideas about Kate Eddowes. That's just 3 examples off the top of my head.....he was starting to get a bit older by 1888 and while I don't question that he was a good doctor, he may have been getting a bit past his use by date and allowed himself to be a bit shaken by what he was seeing in these murders, which therefore hampered his judgement.

Still, having said that, I'm with you on Alice Mackenzie. Unsure - but as I say, the timing of her murder (start of July, 1889) and the meeting of Severin and Lucy (July/August 1889) is interesting, and could potentially be a little more than coincidental.

Or maybe we're just two Chapman-ite's reading too much into it...

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Adam,
I dont agree with you over Dr Phillips, Adam .He was a very experienced police surgeon and had been one for 23 years.
Forensic techniques have improved greatly regarding fixing a time of death accurately and the doctors of 1888 often disagreed with each other over a specific time. I disagree too that at 54 , Dr Phillips would be any less competent than say Dr Bond at 47----seven years is not a wide age gap by any stretch.
Time of death re Stride? His view sounds in harmony with Dr Blackwell.Dr Blackwell arrived shortly after being called out at 1.10 am [ie at about 1.20 am and put the time of her death at twenty minutes to half an hour before. That is between 12.50 and 1 am .Dr Phillips arrived about twenty minutes after Dr Blackwell ie at 1.40 about and put her death at "within the hour"---more or less the same.

If Severin was the murderer known as Jack the Ripper, I dont believe he stopped murdering for long and I believe he varied his signature to dodge capture.Not really anything 'dodgy" about any of this that I can see or would call dodgy,
Cheers Adam,
Norma

[Adam Went]

Hey Nats,

Like I said, I've got no doubt that Dr. Phillips had been a very good doctor over the years, but 54 was quite a ripe old age in the Victorian era, and he seems to have been somewhat at odds with the known facts on several occasions throughout the case.

You could forgive Phillips for being 10 or so minutes out in the Stride murder, but he was atleast an hour out with the Annie Chapman murder, and as for Kate Eddowes? Perhaps one of the most likely to be a Ripper victim....so yes, I think what Dr. Phillips says needs to be taken with a generous pinch of salt.

Agree with you about Severin.....although if he was JTR, perhaps he satisfied himself with his brutality towards Lucy Baderski in between 1888 and 1895....he would have been aware that he would be the first man the police would suspect if his "wives" started turning up mysteriously dead.

Cheers,
Adam.