Can anyone place roughly when Klosowski was in Whitechapel?

[Roy Corduroy]

From Scott Nelson's Butchers Row article -

East of the (St Botolph) churchyard, there were three premises on Aldgate High Street. The first of these, no. 7, was a dining room operated by Willatt & Wattam. In 1889, Kallin & Radin, hairdressers, shared these premises until 1891, when they were replaced by another hairdresser, Karl Frederick Plunneke.

Any thoughts?

Roy

[Chris]

There's some more information about Radin on this thread:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1608

[Adam Went]

Hmmm.....perhaps Severin dropped in to pay a visit to his old friend Abraham on his escape out of Mitre Square, and found a convenient dumping spot en route....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Natalie Severn]

Many Thanks to both Roy and Chris here for bringing up this information.
I believe the Radin"s may have stayed friendly with Klosowski for a short while after he left their place in West India Dock Road. Klosowski , during his 5 month stay with them had helped them with the medical care of their sick son.Mrs Radin testified in court to this as follows :"he was with us for five months,during which time my baby was ill and he helped us with the treatment of it" she pointed out that he had shown her his papers in the Russian and Polish languages which referenced his [medical] studies.

But their 1891 address and work place are so very exact regarding the Mitre Square crime scene that their coincidence is quite remarkable; Goulston Street, where they lived was where the ripper dropped the cut off section of Kate Eddowes"s apron after her murder.
Aldgate High Street is where a "Radin" was working as a hairdresser, and we know that the Radin"s of West India dock Road had moved to Goulston Street it being almost on the corner of Aldgate High Street so very close and Aldgate High Street and that being where PC Robinson found Eddowes ,"drunk and crumpled in a heap on the pavement with a small crowd gathered round her".
A noteworthy set of "coincidences" which I am very grateful to Chris and Roy for bringing to our attention,
Norma

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

I just had a thought that maybe a way to have found out more accurately when Klosowski arrived in London would have been to ask Abraham Radin, the man who he worked for when he first arrived, at West India Dock Road.....he surely would have known a little more about him.

In actual fact we do have a clue as to when Kloswoski first arrived in London courtesy of Ethel Radin.

In an article by Norman Hastings, originally published in Thomson’s Weekly News, 21 June, 1930, Radin, not named but obviously her according to the information published, told Hastings that as Klosowski was new to the country, and somewhat homesick, she had thrown a party for him so that he could meet other Poles living in London. This party had taken place, she was positive, on the night that Martha Tabram had been murdered, the August Bank Holiday (7th of August), 1888, and so, she pointed out, Klosowski couldn’t have murdered Tabram.

That’s as maybe, but the important information provided by Mrs. Radin is that Klosowski was “new to the country” in August, 1888, which suggests that a date of June, 1887, for his arrival in London is incorrect. In fact Hastings states that Klosowski arrived in London in the "Spring of 1888" but does not say where this information came from.

Wolf.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Wolff. Thats extremely helpful. I am inclined to think of someone as being "New to the country" as someone who had arrived between one and six weeks previously.So if Mrs Radin threw her party on 7th August, Klosowski could have arrived anytime between mid June and the end of July 1888.
Best,
Norma

[Adam Went]

Very interesting, Wolf and Nats. Thanks for that. Still, one has to wonder why, if Klosowski did not arrive in London until June 1888 or thereabouts, why his Polish records end in February 1887? What was going on in the intervening 1 year and 4 months?

Perhaps it's a worthwile suggestion that Arthur Neil got a little confused, considering he was writing 44 years after the fact, and meant that he arrived in June 1888, rather than June 1887? I do recall that Neil also recalled his name as being Kloskovski, rather than Klosowski, so there may have been a couple of small errors, which he can hardly be blamed for after so long.

Also, considering the connection to the Radin's - would anyone dare to suggest the possibility that they might, in some way, have been complicit in Klosowski's crimes if he was JTR, or given him shelter on occasions, whether or not they were fully aware of what he was doing?

The plot thickens.....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Neal Shelden]

Below is a larger version of the entry for Klosowski's 17 year old assistant in 1891
The official trancription makes him 77 and it reads as follows:
Name: Max Storikie
Age: 77
Estimated birth year: abt 1814
Relation: Assistant
Gender: Male
Where born: Poland, Russia
Civil parish: Whitechapel St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Jude
County/Island: London
Country: England

As written below I read the surname as STOIRKIE

Personally I think the age is undoubtedly 17 years old and any confusion arises from the cross (an enumerator's mark) that precedes it

I'm thinking that this guy could be 'Max Starke' on the 1901 census at London City, born 1871, aged 30, wife Tilly aged 28, children Easter (Esther) aged 2, and Emilia aged 1.
He was married to Tilly Gluckstein at Whitechapel (March book) 1897.
By 1911, he was saying he was 38, born 1873, and had another daughter Lily aged 6.

[Natalie Severn]

Adam,
Nothing is known so far of what Severin Klosowski/ George Chapman, was doing between the dates of February 1887 and his five month stay with the Radin"s at their Barber shop in 1888 at West India Dock Road.
I believe we may have a clue from the little book ,written in Polish, of 500 prescriptions which had his real name written in the front , "Severin Klosowski" and his then address ,as "54 Cranbrook Street, Green Street" .
This street is situated about a mile and a half from the Docks where Klosowski appears to have arrived in the UK. I am curious as to why he would have written his real name, Severin Klosowski and this particular address out of his many addresses at this point in time.
It is approximately one mile North of West India Dock Road where we know he both lodged and had found a job,in the Barber shop of the Radins.
Its possible therefore that he found a place to stay first at Cranbrook Street where he wrote down the address in the little book.While at this temporary address-which after all could have been for just a month or so after his arrival, he then looked around for a barber shop that could employ him as an assistant barber and he found the Radin"s , a Jewish couple from Russia,and by whom he was offered lodgings as well. Klosowski , though a Catholic and not a Jew, could speak Yiddish which may have helped.
But this is pure guess work.I doubt too that he would have been there long somehow unless he got a job some place.Also ,he could have stayed at Cranbrook Street much later on, after leaving Annie Chapman in Tottenham in November or December 1894 but I somehow doubt it ,because it was at this juncture that he changed his surname to her surname Chapman and never went back to using Klosowski again. We also know the addresses of his previous residences from the various witnesses at his trial and they dont include the Cranbrook Street address.
As for the Radins who knows.Mrs Radin said she met him informally in Cheapside about three after he left West India Dock Road [1891]but hadnt
seen him since.
She must have discussed him with her husband and they appear to have both concluded he couldnt have killed Martha Tabram because her death was on the night she threw a party for him [August 7th].Martha wasnt murdered until after 2.30 am though so it doesnt totally preclude Klosowski who may have seen somebody back to the Whitechapel Road after the party in Limehouse [only a couple of miles away].
I somehow doubt this couple were cahoots with him in any way though-after all Mrs Radin did give evidence that "George Chapman" didnt want at his murder trial ,stating he was none other than Severin Klosowski!

[Natalie Severn]

I'm thinking that this guy could be 'Max Starke' on the 1901 census at London City, born 1871, aged 30, wife Tilly aged 28, children Easter (Esther) aged 2, and Emilia aged 1.
He was married to Tilly Gluckstein at Whitechapel (March book) 1897.
By 1911, he was saying he was 38, born 1873, and had another daughter Lily aged 6.

Sounds like it Neil! Thanks for that,
Best
Norma

[Chris Scott]

Many thanks for that Neal
I'll have a look at him...

[Chris Scott]

He certainly seems to fit the bill - slight discrepancy on age (3 years from 1891) but that is not unusual for census records

1901 census
19 Mansell Street, St Botolph Aldgate
Head: Max Starke aged 30 born Russia - Hairdresser's assistant
Wife: Tilly Starke aged 28 born Russia
Children:
Eastar aged 2
Emilia aged 1
Both born in Whitechapel
Mother in Law:
Silvia Gluckstein aged 70 born Russia

[Chris Scott]

This max Starke survived through into my lifetime!!!
makes you feels old:-)

Death record:
Name: Max Starke
Death Registration Month/Year: 1954
Age at death (estimated): 78
Registration district: Bournemouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Volume: 6b
Page: 175

He stayed in the trade of Hairdresser - below is his listing in the Post Office Directory of 1938

[Natalie Severn]

Its strange when you read things like that isnt it Chris.Like my grandmother was born in November 1894 and the February before Macnaghten wrote his memorandum!
Thanks again for the follow up,
Best
Norma

[Adam Went]

Nats:

Interesting thoughts, but I dunno, the timeline seems very squeezed together.....

If he didn't arrive in London until shortly before August 1888, and was at Cranrook Road.....and then he was with the Radin's in West India Dock Road for 5 months....and then he was at 126 Cable Street.....and then the basement of the White Hart.....I'm really not sure, can all of this information be reconciled into one likely sequence of events? He certainly moved around a lot....

Perhaps it's a possibility worth considering that Mrs. Radin was the one who had the dates wrong, and she threw the party for him on Bank Holiday, August 1887? Which would also fit in with what Arthur Neil said, as well as the cessation of his Polish records, as well as his known addresses from 1888 through to 1890. Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Adam.