Article on Abberline's opinions

[george chapman]

If anyone says it wasn't Chapman they clearly just want to keep this rolling for rollings sake. Chapman was the Ripper and its pretty bloody obvious.

[Sox]

So you think he killed them because he didn't want to cause any suffering and then ripped up whole parts of the bodies of many of the victims for no particular reason because he was a compassionate guy? This wasn't someone putting his victims down in a misguided attempt at being humane (which is incidentally a trait of a number of poisoners), this was someone would loved death and cutting.

Killing people quickly in situations where doing otherwise would without a doubt get you instantly captured isn't proof of an aversion for causing pain, it's proof of being sane and rational enough to want to avoid ending up in a noose.

Mutilators by their psychology like causing pain and suffering, some are just more confident and capable in expressing that than others. A few poisoners are interested in making their victims suffer, and others just want them dead in a way that can't be easily linked to themselves. Klosowski seems to be the latter type of poisoner, which, if true, would mean that he did have different motivations than the Ripper, but in exactly the opposite way that you have argued.

Oh please, no lectures. Jack the Ripper did NOT get his kicks by seeing his victims suffer, or by the THOUGHT of their suffering. He killed them in seconds did he not? Serial poisoners are known to revel in their victims suffering, and they are two totally different types of motivation/drive.

If Jacks needs were sadistic, then he would not have been killing women in the middle of the street, where time & circumstances would give him no time for such things.

[Dan Norder]

Many poisoners take much more delight, in the suffering of their victims, than they do in the actual death. Jack the Ripper killed his victims quickly, no suffering involved see? Not the same killer imo, quite different motivations.

So you think he killed them because he didn't want to cause any suffering and then ripped up whole parts of the bodies of many of the victims for no particular reason because he was a compassionate guy? This wasn't someone putting his victims down in a misguided attempt at being humane (which is incidentally a trait of a number of poisoners), this was someone would loved death and cutting.

Killing people quickly in situations where doing otherwise would without a doubt get you instantly captured isn't proof of an aversion for causing pain, it's proof of being sane and rational enough to want to avoid ending up in a noose.

Mutilators by their psychology like causing pain and suffering, some are just more confident and capable in expressing that than others. A few poisoners are interested in making their victims suffer, and others just want them dead in a way that can't be easily linked to themselves. Klosowski seems to be the latter type of poisoner, which, if true, would mean that he did have different motivations than the Ripper, but in exactly the opposite way that you have argued.

[Sox]

Yet someone who could slowly poison a woman to death and glibly lead others to think he was concerned for the woman...? He could be capable of anything it seems.

For me, that is the one thing that points away from Chapman being the Ripper. Many poisoners take much more delight, in the suffering of their victims, than they do in the actual death. Jack the Ripper killed his victims quickly, no suffering involved see? Not the same killer imo, quite different motivations.

[Celesta]

well sam, not trying to split hairs here but there are quite a few murders unsolved,quite a few killers uncaught, and probabley killers convicted of only a fraction of their crimes,possibly because the m.o didnt connect them. I mean we are dealing with severely warped creatures here (no offense meant to any serial killers reading this) and I think its dangerous to try and second guess what these kind of people might or might not have done.but thats only my opinion of course......never say never.
regards

No offense taken, Dougie. I used to have Chapman pegged as the Torso killer, and I'm still not 100% ready to give up the suspicion, but on another of these threads about Chapman, I let myself be persuaded away from that. I wonder if he was suspected of the Torso killings at all in his time. I read a book about him, but I swear I can't remember any suspicions attached to him. People say he was murderer and a bad piece of work, but he was no JTR. Yet someone who could slowly poison a woman to death and glibly lead others to think he was concerned for the woman...? He could be capable of anything it seems.

[Ben]

Hi Tradesman, and welcome.

Unfortunately, we don't have any evidence that Klosowski lived under the White Hart in 1888, nor do we have evidence that he was especially strong or agile. On the contrary, pictorial indications suggest a mousey and diminutive physique, and at least one contemporary described him as an "undersized man with small sharp features". As such, I'm not sure that his real age would have been camouflaged at all. There's certainly no evidence that he sported any facial furniture in 1888.

The M.O ,the timing of the events,the rising scale of violence against the victims and then -no more murders!.There can only be three reasons for this-1) he was no longer alive -2)He was detained /imprisoned for something else-3)he left the area for some other reason,and maybe carried on murderous activity elsewhere,possibly in a differently evolved form

Not true, I'm afraid.

There are many other possible explanations besides the three you posit.

[Sam Flynn]

I didn't say that I liked my theory. I only threw it out there. Sometimes you just gotta do that.

Indeed, CD, and thank you for doing so.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

I didn't say that I liked my theory. I only threw it out there. Sometimes you just gotta do that.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi CD,

But what if it was in fact simply for monetary gain from the harvesting of organs?

I guess he could have bopped them over the head with a piece of lead pipe. Whatever the motives of Jack the Ripper (and I'm not assuming they were psychotic or otherwise, by the way) they manifested as violent behaviour that was both extreme and direct. This contrasts with the more detached and vicarious violence of poisoners like Kłosowski.

[tradesman121]

Identifying Jack the Ripper

having followed this case for years in print and other media,and now living in the area where these murders were committed,it seems obvious to me why the Police never caught their man.They didn't ask themselves the right questions and hence weren't able to make the correct logical deductions.Far too much evidence was circumstantial and lacking in substance.The main question should have been 'what is each little thing in itself?' and 'what is the perpetrator trying to say'?The M.O ,the timing of the events,the rising scale of violence against the victims and then -no more murders!.There can only be three reasons for this-1) he was no longer alive -2)He was detained /imprisoned for something else-3)he left the area for some other reason,and maybe carried on murderous activity elsewhere,possibly in a differently evolved form.The balance of opinion suggests he was heavily moustached,on over the shoulder sightings which were only from the rear.That he was also local was obvious,escaping a cordon after the double event he went back to the heart of the melee,and made good his escape from other murder scenes by using steam driven dimly gas lit underground trains,which were close to every murder location.He murdered at weekends because he had more time free,and changed his M.O when murdering became personal.Partners are murdered in the shared or marital home,and butchering bodies is messy in one's own living environment.

(He didn't escape justice ultimately),he lived in the same street at the time of the (Martha Tabram) first killing,underground,in the pub(White Hart) at the end of George Yard,or Gunthorpe Street as it is now known.The street may have given him the inspiration for his alias british name.

His youth (24) at the time of the killings,gave him strength and agility,as had his training in surgery assistance in Poland,and his moustache and physique helped camouflage his real age,and he was greatly helped by the backfiring diversionary tactics that ensued in the hue cry.i.e, the desire to nobble a jew,and the general lack of logic and rationality of the general populace of the wretched run down area.All these factors played into his hands.The decision to emigrate after the last murder was taken as a result of being partially seen.But within a year or two,his blood lust sated,he couldn't resist the temptation to return to the scene of his greatest triumphs,to relive old memories.Forget the royal connections,the drowned barrister/teacher,Leather Apron and the rest,it was Chapman/Klosowski.

[c.d.]

Hi Sam,

It would appear that you are basing your assumptions on the fact that Jack had some psychotic motivation for his killings. But what if it was in fact simply for monetary gain from the harvesting of organs? Then the switching to poison becomes less problematic. It was simply the most expedient way to rid himself of his wives and to get their money. I admit that this seems a bit out there but it can't be ruled out entirely.

c.d.

[dougie]

well sam, not trying to split hairs here but there are quite a few murders unsolved,quite a few killers uncaught, and probabley killers convicted of only a fraction of their crimes,possibly because the m.o didnt connect them. I mean we are dealing with severely warped creatures here (no offense meant to any serial killers reading this) and I think its dangerous to try and second guess what these kind of people might or might not have done.but thats only my opinion of course......never say never.
regards

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dougie,

Yes, of course, but serial killers have stopped for indeterminate periods,for whatever reason.

That's the usual answer, and I don't deny that it seems to have happened. What I doubt is that there are many - any? - killers who have jettisioned one technique, radically changed their approach after a nine-year sabbatical, and then stuck with the new approach. In short, I cannot imagine Jack the Ripper morphing a decade later into the Borough Poisoner. For me it's like one of those "magic pictures" - no matter how much I revisit the puzzle; no matter how much I stare or try to force myself to "make it work", I just can't see anything believable emerging.

[dougie]

Hi Dougie,...but he could still have continued to commit other mutilation murders in the 9 years that elapsed between 1888 and his first wife-poisoning.

SAM,
Yes, of course, but serial killers have stopped for indeterminate periods,for whatever reason.And he could have been responsible for the other two murders that arent generally accepted to be the rippers. could even maybe have changed his methods several times,could have been responsible for others we cant even guess at.impossible to know I guess.
Druitt has always fitted the bill ,for me anyway but thats a different issue of course,and not relevant to this thread.
regards

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dougie,

Maybe the change in method is irrelevant. Maybe Chapman merely wanted to kill women. He could hardly slash his victims (wives) to death in his own house and expect to get away with it.

...but he could still have continued to commit other mutilation murders in the 9 years that elapsed between 1888 and his first wife-poisoning.