change in modus operandi

[protohistorian]

The Ripper left them where they were, Nats - that's not disposing of them. Why the sudden shift to "discreet disposal" after November 9th, 1888? One might say that the "other" subsequent victims "just went missing" and were never reported, which is why we've never heard of them - but isn't that a stretch too far?

Given the rate at which the Ripper struck, and his apparently "local" mode of operation, we'd have seen at least some indication that something odd was going on in whichever locale Klosowski lived at any given time. The odd "missing person" is one thing, but dozens, or even scores of them over a period of 9 years would surely have caused some suspicions to arise.

No it is not.

[Sam Flynn]

No it is not.

Believe what you like.

[Natalie Severn]

The Ripper left them where they were, Nats - that's not disposing of them. Why the sudden shift to "discreet disposal" after November 9th, 1888? One might say that the "other" subsequent victims "just went missing" and were never reported, which is why we've never heard of them - but isn't that a stretch too far?

Given the rate at which the Ripper struck, and his apparently "local" mode of operation, we'd have seen at least some indication that something odd was going on in whichever locale Klosowski lived at any given time. The odd "missing person" is one thing, but dozens, or even scores of them over a period of 9 years would surely have caused some suspicions to arise.

Sam,
Some serial killers ,even very recently,went on and on over many years---I cant remember the chap in the Ukraine who murdered hundreds over many years--- must find it later----but I can see a situation developing where he chose his homeless victims more carefully and disposed of them more carefully,than previously.
Chapman remember was terrified of the gallows----he shook and trembled and had to be supported right to the last so IF he was the ripper and had had a close shave two or three times,he may have simply decided to quit killing in the streets ,while he was able to remain free and alive!

[Sam Flynn]

I can see a situation developing where he chose his homeless victims more carefully and disposed of them more carefully,than previously.

That being the case, Nats, and assuming he kept up the Ripper's "burn-rate", we might be looking at anywhere between 50 and 180 missing persons in London or Hastings, in the 9-year period between the Autumn of Terror and the "Christmas of Chunder" during which Mary Spink died. Where are they? I can understand the odd missing waif and stray not making the headlines, but surely not all those.

[Natalie Severn]

That being the case, Nats, and assuming he kept up the Ripper's "burn-rate", we might be looking at anywhere between 50 and 180 missing persons in London or Hastings, in the 9-year period between the Autumn of Terror and the "Christmas of Chunder" during which Mary Spink died. Where are they? I can understand the odd missing waif and stray not making the headlines, but surely not all those.

The serial killer I was thinking of earlier Sam was named Andrei Chikatilo,also known as The Rostov Ripper serial killer.It was really only his "confessions" that led police to his victims,mostly homeless women or prostitutes but later children too.
He began his killings in 1978,stopped for 6 years until 1982 ,then started again by approaching young vagrants at bus and railway stations and luring them to woods on the promise of money or alcohol.There was another long lapse between 1982 and 1988 when he restarted.Most victims were buried in shallow graves.There were changes in modus operandi though he was fixated by knifings.There were bits of cannibalism too.
He had killed at least 52 women and children by 1992 ,ie a period of unsuspected killings lasting fourteen years by the time he was arrested.

Dennis Nielsen killed upwards of 15 young men.He hid some in his garden ,some in his house but also used several other methods of disposal.He too had a long reign of terror though not so long as the Rostov ripper which was 14 years.

Chapman

[protohistorian]

They are most defineately there,we are not looking for the correct things. Considering how fixated many people are about the ripper and loyalty to the knife, they overlook (ignore) all other potentialities. Ripperologists have severe linkage blindness. In addition our data set is limited by both poor record keeping and temporal distance. Severin's pathology would NOT take time off. Once the pathology is reached it needs an outlet until the subject dies. When we see a time of "stability" in siciopathic people, it is ALWAYS a matter of linkage blindness. This includes the phenomena of not associating fatal crimes and the aquisition of viable legal outlets by the killer. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Dave,
Are you saying Severin wouldnt have stopped at any point from when he started say in 1887?
I can accept that but the evidence from his trial and execution in 1903 reveals a man in absolute terror of the noose---a man whose world collapsed from the moment sentence of death was passed on him and who revealed himself to be a complete coward---barely able to function because of fear .
I believe the Ripper was almost caught on the night of the double event:
1st in Dutfields Yard and then in Mitre Square.
Also, Whitechapel was teeming with police, both in uniform and plain clothes, as well as the numbers of Vigillance Committees which had sprung up .You will remember how he left a gap of almost six weeks between murders before he struck again and this time it was within the relative safety of a room in Miller"s Court.So whoever he was it seems he recognised the danger and risk he was taking was too great and took steps to reduce it.

So the fear of being caught had begun to figure on his "what"s possible" agenda and for a while at least killing women and leaving their mutilated bodies in the streets was a definite no no.
However all was not lost;Since Chapman had become the sole proprietor of a barber shop in Cable Street some time in 1888 and could more or less do whatever he liked in its basement, he most likely toned down the murderous conduct a tad..This is what I meant when I said it wasnt a coincidence that a headless female torso was found just around the corner from that shop ten months after Mary Kelly was murdered-in September 1889.He had no other choice than to risk getting caught and hung for murder pretty soon or to change tactics and fool the police into the false sense of security that he was either dead or in the loony bin----and the police appear to have fallen for his trickery to some extent , and begun to scale down their men on the case by January 1889 .

[perrymason]

1. "I believe the Ripper was almost caught on the night of the double event"

2. "........ he left a gap of almost six weeks between murders before he struck again and this time it was within the relative safety of a room in Miller"s Court.So whoever he was it seems he recognised the danger and risk he was taking was too great and took steps to reduce it."

3."... So the fear of being caught had begun to figure on his "what"s possible" agenda and for a while at least killing women and leaving their mutilated bodies in the streets was a definite no no."


4. "...This is what I meant when I said it wasnt a coincidence that a headless female torso was found just around the corner from that shop ten months after Mary Kelly was murdered-in September 1889.He had no other choice than to risk getting caught and hung for murder pretty soon or to change tactics and fool the police into the false sense of security that he was either dead or in the loony bin----and the police appear to have fallen for his trickery to some extent , and begun to scale down their men on the case by January 1889 .

Hi Natalie,

I numbered the points you made above so I could address them in order:

1. I think the evidence suggests that the killer in Mitre Square narrowly evaded being caught. There is no evidence that unequivacably links the two murders.

2. There is no evidence that suggests the killer modified his behavior at all based on his notoriety or the amount of people looking for him, and there is no evidence that suggests outdoor venues were not his choice. You suggested that the man began act on his fears....I dont think that this man feared capture at all....in fact he risks it openly..he just didnt want to be.

3. In the early summer of 1889 the police reacted swiftly to the death of Alice Mckenzie, treating it like another Ripper Crime, heightening police numbers again and calling on medical men that had played some role investigating the deaths of the Canonical Victims. Because Bond though they were dissimilar hands at work means nothing...the facts are that this death was very much like a Ripper murder, they investigated the suspect from this murder for other Ripper crimes, and it is once again, a murder committed in public, outside. This may be evidence that almost a year after the first Ripper attributed kill that the same man still chose to kill in the same manner and type of locations as the killer of C1, C2 and C4.

4. As I mentioned, many of the officers on loan for the Ripper crimes came back when Alice was killed. This is an obvious sign at least they felt he was still at large, and might kill again just like the 3 perhaps consecutive murders the previous Fall. The Torso you mentioned is the 2nd in a year, and there were others a few years earlier....it is said that the remains found on Oct 3, 1888 had been from a woman killed and dismembered around late August by estimates. So there appears to be a man or men making Torsos at the same place in time...theres nothing that might link those crimes to Ripper crimes other than the timing of their discovery.

Theres no evidence that Jack the Ripper even killed Mary Jane let alone that he did so indoors because he was now scared of his pursuers...theres no reason to suggest that he wasnt satisfied or killed outdoors for reasons other than it being his own choice,...they may be no cessation of acts in those districts that resemble the murders and abdominal mutilations of the Fall of 88 by the late Spring of 89,..perhaps indicating just periods of dormancy, and there is no indication by what we know of the killer or killers...which is about zilch....to suggest that he would, could, or did change his killing style, and a method he perhaps uses almost identically 4 times in a single year.

Ripper crimes didnt keep happening in Londons East End after 88-89.....that doesnt mean the man that murdered the women has stopped or changed anything about himself...other than likely, his location.....or it may mean he was then unable to kill again, being dead or institutionalized.

Best regards Nats as always.

[protohistorian]

yes. Once a fatal pathology exists it requires either socially sanctioned outlets, or criminal behavior. It is an analog to addiction. Sociopathic people DO NOT take breaks. The pathology is such that once established it is terminal to the bearer.

[protohistorian]

Hi Dave,
Are you saying Severin wouldnt have stopped at any point from when he started say in 1887?
I can accept that but the evidence from his trial and execution in 1903 reveals a man in absolute terror of the noose---a man whose world collapsed from the moment sentence of death was passed on him and who revealed himself to be a complete coward---barely able to function because of fear .
I believe the Ripper was almost caught on the night of the double event:
1st in Dutfields Yard and then in Mitre Square.
Also, Whitechapel was teeming with police, both in uniform and plain clothes, as well as the numbers of Vigillance Committees which had sprung up .You will remember how he left a gap of almost six weeks between murders before he struck again and this time it was within the relative safety of a room in Miller"s Court.So whoever he was it seems he recognised the danger and risk he was taking was too great and took steps to reduce it.

So the fear of being caught had begun to figure on his "what"s possible" agenda and for a while at least killing women and leaving their mutilated bodies in the streets was a definite no no.
However all was not lost;Since Chapman had become the sole proprietor of a barber shop in Cable Street some time in 1888 and could more or less do whatever he liked in its basement, he most likely toned down the murderous conduct a tad..This is what I meant when I said it wasnt a coincidence that a headless female torso was found just around the corner from that shop ten months after Mary Kelly was murdered-in September 1889.He had no other choice than to risk getting caught and hung for murder pretty soon or to change tactics and fool the police into the false sense of security that he was either dead or in the loony bin----and the police appear to have fallen for his trickery to some extent , and begun to scale down their men on the case by January 1889 .

Terror of the noose did not set in until the trial. If Severin ever expressed fear in his actions it was liked to the fragility of his perceptions. He was afraid of our "reality" intruding on his "reality". Fear of being caught was an ancillary concern for him. His behavior was always geared to him and what he wanted, not conformity. Respectfully Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Since Chapman had become the sole proprietor of a barber shop in Cable Street

Again, Nats, we don't know that. He might have been managing it for/leasing it from Mr Radin, he might have had assistant barbers sleeping on the premises, he himself might have lived off the premises, using Cable Street only as a business/postal address.

[Natalie Severn]

Mike and Dave,
But human beings are not robots,I am aware of the compulsive patterns that occur in addictive behaviour,but I doubt the Ripper was sane enough for addictive behaviour to be the dominant factor throughout his behaviour.
Much more likely he thought he was being "ordered" to do these killings.

Most of the grotesque type of killings we read about are committed by people who take GREAT CARE NOT to BE CAUGHT and dont forget----the ripper was NEVER caught .FACT.

Therefore it stands to reason he took care,even when he took risks.He didnt get caught even when he was murdering Polly Nichols in between the 15 minute repetitive beats of two policemen one of whose beats passed the crime scene.


Everything you both say,Michael and Dave,contradicts the recent findings of the case of serial killer and mutilator of sexual organs etc ROBERT NAPPER,the Broadmoor killer also discovered to have been the [earlier] "virgin rapist" of Green Lanes He has been found to be suffering from delusions of grandeur and paranoid schizophrenia and he is currently serving life for at least two brutal killings [ they now believe he "probably" committed many more, but as with Rachel Nickell, he will NOT confess to ANYTHING until police provide sufficient evidence] .
One was the Wimbledon Common murder which he committed 15 years ago and which was in the OPEN AIR and was a FRENZIED STABBING [a la Martha TABRAM----49 stab wounds rather than 39 stab wounds.
His other murder was that of another young mother and her child this time,Jacqueline Bisset.This murder was almost an exact replica of the murder of Mary Kelly, ie it was an INDOOR MURDER IN HER FLAT,consisting of her grotesque MUTILATION ,an unsuccessful attempt {I think} to remove her head and limbs and the actual removal of skin and inner abdominal organs,which were placed in various locations around the flat and taking some as trophies or whatever.Her child was also murdered,though in the earlier stabbing in Wimbledon Common the child present was fortunately left alive.

How do you know terror of the noose set in only at his trial Dave? This is as speculative a statement as mine is isnt it?

If you study the recent behavior of Andrei Chikatilo who got away with murdering women and even some children ,totalling 52 in twelve years,you will see that his behaviour changed.He stopped murdering for several years at a time,one spell of abstinence lasted six years,another for four years.So where does this NON STOP stuff come from exactly because its not borne out by fact.

Also I do not believe the ripper was "sociopathic".I believe he was probably mentally ill and suffered from paranoid schizophrenia like Robert Napper does.

[protohistorian]

less than 5 percent of serials are diagnosed with severe mental illnesses. One case aside, the statistical trend is otherwise. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Dave,
its not like there are millions of "serials" presenting insanity pleas ---thankfully they number very few indeed compared with the general population.But if you really truly believe the law would allow every one of them a rest home in Broadmoor because they decide to present their "insanity plea" then you dont know how British justice operates .Several psychologists/psychiatrists are involved for a start to try and determine the truth.
To me Chapman appears to live in another world-thats why I suspect he is a nutter---imagining himself to be an American big game hunter, dressing up like a dandy with a carnation in his buttonhole, acting in a bizarre way in his Hastings barber shop---few barbers would have given their customers a sing-a-long with piano accompaniment while giving them a shave.
Anyway,I am only stating my own view about him .

[protohistorian]

It is not about outside perceptions Natalie, it is about the nature of the problem. Sociopathy is an expression of multiple dysfunctional and grossly inaccurate world views. The condition is a long time (usually multiple years) in onsetting as more and more dysfunctioning value systems are added. The recidivism rate is high, and cure is impossible because not only would you have to tease out which systems of value are impaired, you would have to convince the patient to change substantial tracts of his internal program. Then of course is the matter of why this psychology accumulated so many dysfunctional value systems to begin with. It is a lifelong problem. Addiction is a valid analog, in so far as an ex-user is not the same as an ex-addict. Once the psycho-pathology reaches an advanced enough stage to be lethal, there are years of behavior behind it.