thought experiment

[Malcolm X]

Hi Michael and Malcolm X,
Thanks to you both for your thoughts---really helpful.

I dont know the answer either---its a hunch I have about him as much as anything.
Incidently Michael I see him as very much the dreamer.His activities in his Hastings Barber shop were very odd.He and Mary,presumably in happier times,put on a musical show for their customers.While she lathered ,he shaved the customers all the while having some sing song.Immediately afterwards Mary played tunes on the piano and Chapman and she encouraged the customers to join in.Meanwhile their business was so successful that they bought a boat,he dressed up as skipper and they sailed up and down the coast in it.Ashore he boasted about how he would take the boat to Boulogne.
Similarly he used to lie about being an American hunter and boast about owning guns and going out on big game shoots.
Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.This I believe was in 1888.He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.So he could come and go as he pleased.
Best
Nats

hi Natalie

yes he had flamboyancy/ charisma...he must have had these characteristcs anyway, to be able to attract and mesmerise so many women....he had the gift of the gab.

but of course, intense evil lurking below the surface...he's definitely an interesting character.

but could he have switched his M.O to be a poisoner, i would say that he could've been one of the 3% that was able to do so...he's definitely articulate/ adaptable enough to do so..

but he doesn't fit the profile of a mutilator as stated on this thread....and i agree with this, plus no more ripper style murders during this later period, what can i say....................well ( hunch)

i cant say much, that i havent already..

ok, he had a knife and threatened to use it, he was violent, he has revealed that he's got what it takes to be the ripper and maybe....the true nature of his evil was well hidden, just like Peter Sutcliff's wife didn't realise the full extent of her husband's evil...in fact, i think she knew nothing.

his lovers realised that Chapman was evil and far more so than he was revealing.......``i will cut your head off``.... now this is a very disturbing thing to say and it's not all that he ment to say either, because to do so and to hide her body correctly; to escape detection.....you'd be looking at another torso murder....and not left at home either...dumped far away, with the head/ arms/ legs dumped somewhere else..

did Chapman reveal only 20% of his true evil; with his lovers detecting the rest..but of course, not knowing what this was...``you do not know what this man is capable of``...yes i think they did.

but where they detecting Jack?..................i dont know

[Sam Flynn]

Hi CD,

Probably because they would have been much easier to kill...or did I miss something here?

Well, his actually being in the neighbourhood for one, and for another why homeless drabs were never targeted in a like manner again, despite the fact that we know that Klosowski was at large for a considerable number of years.

Good looking ones for sex, homeless ones for killing.

He seems to have dropped that balanced outlook during his poisoning spree - unless there were vagrants whom he'd visit every day, dosing them with tartar emetic until gradually they, too, died from the effects of green vomit.

[c.d.]

Hi Malcolm,
What would a young, charismatic, sex maniac be doing soliciting the services of superannuated alcoholic bag-ladies in the small hours of the morning in the first place? Klosowski was clearly not a man who struggled to attract decent-looking female companions, so why would he resort to the dissipated vagrants who haunted the streets after the doss-houses had closed their doors?

Probably because they would have been much easier to kill...or did I miss something here? Good looking ones for sex, homeless ones for killing.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.

We don't know that at all, Nats. For all we know there were 7 other Polish barbers and barbers' assistants kipping on the floor.

This I believe was in 1888. He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.

The Post Office Directory, as I've shown, was accepting entries until well into the second week of December 1888. I'm not saying that Klosowski took up the running of the shop at the eleventh hour before the Directory presses rolled, but it can't be ruled out. We certainly have no way of knowing that Klosowski was there throughout the "Autumn of Terror". In fact, we can't even say that he was resident there at the time the Mary Kelly murder, and it's actually by no means certain that Klosowski was living there at all. He might have had digs elsewhere, using the Cable Street premises only as a business and postal address.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Malcolm,

this man, reading Sudgen's book, i would describe as almost a ``sex maniac``... i bet you that back in 1888, that he was searching for prostitutes on the street.... now what would happen if they said ``no`` to him?

What would a young, charismatic, sex maniac be doing soliciting the services of superannuated alcoholic bag-ladies in the small hours of the morning in the first place? Klosowski was clearly not a man who struggled to attract decent-looking female companions, so why would he resort to the dissipated vagrants who haunted the streets after the doss-houses had closed their doors?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael and Malcolm X,
Thanks to you both for your thoughts---really helpful.

I dont know the answer either---its a hunch I have about him as much as anything.
Incidently Michael I see him as very much the dreamer.His activities in his Hastings Barber shop were very odd.He and Mary,presumably in happier times,put on a musical show for their customers.While she lathered ,he shaved the customers all the while having some sing song.Immediately afterwards Mary played tunes on the piano and Chapman and she encouraged the customers to join in.Meanwhile their business was so successful that they bought a boat,he dressed up as skipper and they sailed up and down the coast in it.Ashore he boasted about how he would take the boat to Boulogne.
Similarly he used to lie about being an American hunter and boast about owning guns and going out on big game shoots.
Another thing to remember is that Chapman/Klosowski lived in Cable Street on his own in his own Barber shop.This I believe was in 1888.He certainly lived in Cable Street at least for some time in order for his address to be recorded in the directory.So he could come and go as he pleased.
Best
Nats

[Malcolm X]

He inherited nothing.


It is a mystery why he took up poisoning and waited until he was thirty years of age to do so.He had a pretty violent relationship with Lucy Baderski,his young 2nd wife from 1890 when he was only 24 or 25 years old ,who fled back to England from New York ,pregnant and alone and in fear of her life ,after being threatened by Chapman with a knife which he had told her he would use to cut off her head.

So no,the motive was not money Michael.

hi Natalie

yes, money was never Chapman's motive to kill...he could've simply kicked the women out... told them to get lost etc etc ...but no, he poisoned them.

why he poisoned his later lovers is a total mystery.....no need to is there!
he was violent with women (we all know that), he beat Maud Marsh many times... but why start killing?

physical violence....threatening with knives, ``i'll cut off your head``... he owned guns.....

no, he wasn't just a smooth poisoner was he....but we have nothing that nails him as Jack the Ripper, only strong suspicion.

he must have felt murderous back in 1888 as well, did he use a knife on the street..............

``i'll cut off your head``.......now this is similar to the torso murders..definitely...and before this?........well!

this man, reading Sudgen's book, i would describe as almost a ``sex maniac``... i bet you that back in 1888, that he was searching for prostitutes on the street.... now what would happen if they said ``no`` to him, who as we have established; is extremely violent towards women, plus a serial killer later on ( be it a poisoner only)?

well, expect Chapman (without any eyewitnesses, or links to him) to be far more violent out on the street (this is obvious).... but enough to be Jack?......well, i dont know

whatever the case, this ``hands on, violent woman beater`` is extremely close to the Ripper..but way too smart a person to bloody his hands at home (unlike the fool W.Bury)..thus he tried to hide his crimes through poisoning

it will be impossible to convince members here Natalie... because this is something you just sense so strongly, plus Chapman is considered a ``stereotypical cowardly poisoner``...... but no; it's not as simple as that, he's a violent hands on bully, he's very quick tempered with murder in his heart.

my guess is, he bullied/ killed these woman because they insulted his ego in some way; or refused to do the ``housework etc etc``, or when a relationship simply went stale... Chapman was probably a control freak, most bullies are; with a serious inferiority complex....he probably thumped his women quite often.

my guess is, that Chapman would loose his temper most of all, if a prostitute said ``no`` to him and especially ``get lost mister`` , because this would insult his ego most of all.... he'd fly into a rage, now what would happen if Chapman was carrying a knife at the time.

yes, very complicated

Hi Norma,

Nice to see you, and you make some valid points against my statement, being that he did not always poison for obvious financial gain, his last victim had offered no such windfall.

But he does slowly poison a women with whose money he has used to start a business, and when he kills her that partnership and her money remain his.

Perhaps I made it too simplistic, I agree. But there is evidence that supports it on at least one murder.

Heres a thought...everyone seems to think that we see Jacks evolution from almost crawling leg stabber-thief to abdominal night surgeon in the public eye via earlier murders....so use the influence that murder has on Chapman after poisoning once. Might he do it a second time just cause he found he liked it? Or that it rid him of pests...figuratively speaking?

Did the abdominal mutilator show any signs in acts or deeds that suggest his goal...was to kill women?

You and I both know the goal that is evident in the murders of Mary Ann, Annie and at least Kate were to mutilate female organs and genitalia.

I see that as a fantasy killer....and Chapman one of practicality and cruelty.

Al the best Norma, Nats xox

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Michael,
Lets stick to facts shall we.
Klosowski "married" several times and a few of those he was bogusly married to lived to tell the tale.For example Lucy Baderski [1890] and Annie Chapman -1893-1894.
He then lived with Mary Spink---and we have recorded some very interesting linguistic expertise in English by Klosowski at this point in 1895 as he craftily organised another bogus wedding with her following being dumped by Annie Chapman [not our Annie].
Mary Spink did have some money of her own and together they worked in another barber"s shop ,Chapman,as he now called himself,bought with her money.
But please note,he murdered Mary Spink in 1897 and moved on then to Bessie Taylor,a barmaid from whom he inherited nothing and who he had employed to work in his pub.After three years of episodic wife beating[as with Mary Spink] he drew a revolver on Bessie [testimony of Elizabeth Painter her friend,given at Southwark Police Court at his trial for murder 18 March 1903].
In 1901 he "married" an teenager,18 year old Maud Marsh.Maud was the daughter of a labourer and her family had no money nor did she.He murdered her in October 1902.

He inherited nothing.


It is a mystery why he took up poisoning and waited until he was thirty years of age to do so.He had a pretty violent relationship with Lucy Baderski,his young 2nd wife from 1890 when he was only 24 or 25 years old ,who fled back to England from New York ,pregnant and alone and in fear of her life ,after being threatened by Chapman with a knife which he had told her he would use to cut off her head.

So no,the motive was not money Michael.

[Natalie Severn]

no, i'm not convinced by this Sam.....many of his clients would've been English too...especially if his shop had a good reputation

----and was in a part of Whitechapel where English was the predominant language such as Cable Street and George Yard/Whitechapel High Street.

[Natalie Severn]

...in a part of London so densely populated with Yiddish and Polish-speaking immigrants that becoming fluent in English would hardly have been necessary - nor indeed probable, after barely having lived one year in the country, and having lived and worked with other immigrants during that time.

Rubbish Sam.Seriously total rubbish.
I worked in Southall for twelve years .Southall is one of the most densely populated boroughs in London--Punjabi is the language most of community speak ,most of these coming from rural areas of the Punjab ,and I have never,in all my time there spent evaluating the learning needs of bilingual puplils -from 4 years of age to 18 years of age,come across a single one who didnt use basic English phrases within six months and basic English sentences, within twelve months,with a passive understanding of English much exceeding this spoken usage.This happened right across the intelligence spectrum too.From time to time the acquisition of literacy skills would be held up-usually when the person hadnt been to school in their country of birth as happens in some remote areas of the Punjab,otherwise it happened as Chomsky suggests,as a natural phenomena,governed partly by our programming.
On top of all that Immigrant people see it as in their business interests to acquire English so they are motivated.Go to Southall and you will try in vain to find someone out of the huge and densely populated district,who doest speak English----unless they have only been here a few weeeks or something like that.
Best

[Malcolm X]

They're unlikely to be serving fellow migrants almost exclusively, though, Malcolm - and their boss/landlord presumably doesn't converse with them in Polish or Yiddish either. There would have been no need, and quite possibly very little opportunity, for Klosowski to have spoken much English during his initial years in England.

no, i'm not convinced by this Sam.....many of his clients would've been English too...especially if his shop had a good reputation

[Malcolm X]

Hi Howard,



On your second point I highlighted, couldnt agree more...although I do think the knife often is used to prevent or avoid much direct actual contact with the victim as well, when used to stab...a sort of tool. A man that likes holding warm if not hot internal organs along with the knife cutting usage is certainly an intimate killer...and one that is not satisfied with merely causing death.

All the best Howard.

yes, Chapman isn't this at all, he's selfish, cold and callous....he might well stab out on the street or strangle etc, but he doesn't fit the profile of a mutilator...it wouldn't interest him, he'd be more interested in the woman next door and her daughter too!

[Sam Flynn]

our migrant hotel workers can speak good enough English after about 3 months... they have to, because they have to serve our posh guests in the restaurant.

They're unlikely to be serving fellow migrants almost exclusively, though, Malcolm - and their boss/landlord presumably doesn't converse with them in Polish or Yiddish either. There would have been no need, and quite possibly very little opportunity, for Klosowski to have spoken much English during his initial years in England.

[Howard Brown]

On your first point, in my opinion mind you its pretty clear Polly likely was doing so, that Annie was almost certainly doing so, that Liz and Kate are assumed by many to have been doing so...and that there is no evidence Mary Jane was. But we do have evidence in the 2 deaths Im almost 100% convinced were linked by one man...Polly and Annie, that they sought clients. My personal opinion is that Polly and Annie were soliciting, as was Martha Tabram. I dont believe Liz was, nor that that why Kate turned left out of Bishopsgate, nor do I think the evidence suggests that in the case of Mary Kelly.--Mike R.

Dear Mike:

We know that the last person to see Nichols alive or at least the one who communicated with police/press was certain...and I have no doubt that she was stating the truth ( Who debases their friend after their friend gets mutilated? It would be a total verguenza...total disgrace)...that Polly wanted to make some coin to get a room. No argument there. However, how she met up with Mr. Inevitable Fate is a discussion for another thread. Sorry to divert the discussion. All the best...HB