thought experiment

[protohistorian]

That is not enirely correct. Wolf states he had no occassion to hear Severin speak english. The context of the exchanges between these men was that of a seller and buyer, and the need for precise communication may have lead the men to use Yiddish. Wolf can only give insight into one class of social interactions. I would think given total immersion within a foriegn language, Severin quickly learned enough for most of his social interactions. The lingua franca of polish or yiddish is not valid in all social contexts and Severin would have had a mandate to learn some english. Interactions with government officials is just one example. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

I disagree, Dave,

Are you sure that's an exact quote you're attributing to Levisshion; that he had "no occassion to hear Severin speak english"? From my recollections, it was observed that he spoke Polish and some Yiddish, which would be a peculiar observation if Klosowski could also speak English at the time. If he could, then the applicable observation would be that he spoke Polish and some Yiddish and some English.

As I mentioned, Levisshon's later observation that he could speak English "then" (i.e. in 1895) would only make any real sense if Klosowski could not speak English beforehand. The fact that he clearly mingled with his own milieu in those only days is also a telling indicator than an inability to speak English would not have been a hinderance.

[protohistorian]

No it is not a quote, it is an abstraction from several sections. The nature of the discourse between these men likely determined the language to be used. Wolf does not proclude English, rather he assumes it to be a language that Severin was not fluid in enough to conduct business. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

But the fact that Levishon observed that he was speaking English "then" with reference to 1895, invites the logical inference that he could not when he formerly acquainted with him. If his being able to speak English wasn't a new thing by 1895, there was obviously no need to mention it.

[protohistorian]

That would only mean Severin's use of english was new to wolf. Your interpretation is likely correct as far as wolf is concerned, beyond wolf we have no idea. Respectfully Dave

[perrymason]

What language did his wives speak? Surely they could converse.

Best regards

[protohistorian]

Baderski almost certainly Polish. Spink and later Marsh, English. But we know that by the late 1890's he was conversent enough to be a publican. Considering how much of his behavior he obfuscated, we are unlikely to know.

[Ben]

I'd be a little surprised if Wolf's experiences were any differnt to the majority of his friends and colleagues, but not impossible I guess.

[protohistorian]

I would expect a radical difference. We know that the primary reason for lingua francas is economics. We have Wolf engaged in just this enterprise with Severin. Most other interpersonal activities are carried on in the dominant language of the location. The need to learn at least conversational english would have been omnipresent. Certainly by the time you own a business and require interaction with the government, you had best have an operational understanding of the dominant laguage. Respectfully Dave

[Ben]

We know that the primary reason for lingua francas is economics. We have Wolf engaged in just this enterprise with Severin.

Yes, but it's perhaps unreasonable to surmise that the basis of their entire communication was business-talk. They were bound to have conversed on a more "human" level at some point, and yet Levisshon stated that he spoke Polish and Yiddish, no mention of English - probably because he didn't speak any at that early stage. Certainly, if he was almost exclusively in the company of fellow immigrants, there was no immediate reason to learn English. The fact that it was mentioned that he could speak English by 1895 would make the most sense if he couldn't before, in my view.

Best regards,
Ben

[protohistorian]

It may not be a matter of couldn't but rather didn't. Once a dialogue has been established, the language rarely changes. Even with the large percentage of immigrants and the widespread use of Polish and Yiddish, a certain percentage of social interaction would be in English. We only know that in the context viewed by Wolf, Yiddish and Polish predominated. By the time of purchasing the poison, the chemist describes Severin as an intellectual. It is unlikely he postponed learning the language, rather he followed a learning curve. From the time he moved to England, he was aquiring English in such a degree as he could. We have no outside reference to how good that might have been. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, but it's perhaps unreasonable to surmise that the basis of their entire communication was business-talk. They were bound to have conversed on a more "human" level at some point, and yet Levisshon stated that he spoke Polish and Yiddish, no mention of English - probably because he didn't speak any at that early stage. Certainly, if he was almost exclusively in the company of fellow immigrants, there was no immediate reason to learn English. The fact that it was mentioned that he could speak English by 1895 would make the most sense if he couldn't before, in my view.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,
It seems to me he could hardly have run a business or been engaged in the work of a barber,without picking up English.
This particular job would be considered by linguists to have been the most perfect environment for developing BICS [basic interpersonal communication skills,taking on average between 6 months and 18 months to acquire conversational fluency].He would have had both aural access from customers and opportunity through the work itself to practise basic speech such as repetitive sentence structuring and patterning ,on a daily basis acquiring vocabulary by listening to the conversations going on all around him.Moreover a barber would not, I believe ,have been readily employed in a busy community like the East End was in 1888, where numbers of customers would have needed to use some English to discuss their needs.
Bear in mind,speaking in English with a fellow Pole such as Wolff would have been an absolute no no ---highly pretentious for a start and false ----Wolff would therefore,as a fellow speaker of Polish,have conversed with Severin almost exclusively in their native lingua----Polish and sometimes Yiddish.Wolff was a travelling salesman who called in at the shop in the basement of the Whitehart,Georges Yard, from time to time.
Best
Norma

[Ben]

From the time he moved to England, he was aquiring English in such a degree as he could.

The strong indications that he stuck with other immigrants in both his social and professional life may have interfered with any English-learning efforts he may have engaged in. Such was the representation of Poles in the district, that he could cheerfully have got by for a long time without having any need for communication with the English. I find it interesting that he was recorded as speaking English after he had lived in areas where the wasn't such a strong representation of his native folk.

Regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Bear in mind,speaking in English with a fellow Pole such as Wolff would have been an absolute no no ---highly pretentious for a start and false ----Wolff would therefore,as a fellow speaker of Polish,have conversed with Severin almost exclusively in their native lingua----Polish and sometimes Yiddish.

But Levisshon offered no such caveat when he gave his rather crucial evidence on oath at the trial. If there was any time to specifiy that "while SK could speak English, he didn't personally to me" it was certainly the trial. Instead, her clearly differntiates between the language spoken by SK the 1880s and the languagae spoken by him in 1895. By the latter date, he had clearly divested himself of his almost exclusively foreign friends and clientele, and "now" spoke English.

He might have known the odd word of two in the early days, but I see no eivdence that he could properly converse in English at that time, and indications aplenty that he couldn't.

Best regards,
Ben

[protohistorian]

There is no doubt you could limit your interactions to poles. What is questioned is did he limit himself in such a manner. His personality does not seem to lend itself to extraordinary effort. There is also the matter of those situations where Polish was not an option. Everyday activities like buying food or drink would either require slavish adherents to certain places or people or some fluidity of action. Respectfully Dave