Kidney - for and against

[Cap'n Jack]

And your 'unique source', Tom, to absolutely show us that Kidney was questioned by the police?
And your explanation of why the police were still questioning Kidney at inquest?

[Tom_Wescott]

I have to say I have spent the day going over books and dissertations and I can't seem to find any info that can state definitivly that I am wrong. The authors are from what I understand quite respected members of the jtr circle so I would like to think they know what they are on about.

Thanks for that, TJI. Perhaps all my research is wrong then. If you'd be so kind, please provide the name/source for the reputable author who wrote the following:

The Police Doctor suggested that a small knife with a round tip was used to kill Stride. In the earlier murders of Chapman and Nicholls and the later murders of Eddows and Kelly a long bladed knife was used.

And please also provide the source on Dr. Phillips where you learned the following:

The Police Doctor stated at the time he believed her murder to be unconnected to the previous murders.

And from the same post of yours, we also have:

Add to that Kidney was reported to be of the violent/possesive/jealous disposition, we have no proof of his whereabouts, and the fact that he gave a questionable performance at the inquest then I believe his is a viable suspect.

I'd love to learn the source for Kidney having been violent/possessive/jealous. Certainly a lone, abandoned complaint against him during a three year relationship isn't your evidence for this? And although we have no proof of his 'whereabouts', the fact that the police checked out the alibis of all of Stride's associates would surely suggest that THEY had an idea of his whereabouts, would it not? And how was his 'performance' at the inquest "questionable"? Pathetic, yes, but questionable? We're all here to learn, so I'd be most grateful if you'd share your unique sources with us. Thanks.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

"And that makes Amen number two; you could get religious for less!

Blimey!
I wouldn't want to do that to you, Fisherman.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

If Stride was an occasional prostitute (although we may - note that I say 'may' - have some small indications of that she might not have been indulging in this this particular night), then she probably had used this street before as a spot. It is quite common for prostitutes to use the same spots repeteadly in order for some of their more regular customers to find them more easily.

If so, then Kidney might have been well aware of this spot from earlier occasions when she'd disappear from home for periods of time. It is even quite possible that he'd walked this street other nights after she left him the last time, but didn't find her there until this particular incident.
And of course, as others have said here, he could have found out about it from other people that he knew.

So I really don't see the problem.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

His occupation is down as waterside labourer, and therefore, may have had reason to pass down Commercial Rd.

Hi Jon,

Possibly - however he'd have to have glanced towards the southern half of a gloomy side-street heading off Commercial Road (Berner Street), and recognised Liz from a distance in the gloom. Alternatively, he would have to have passed nearer to Dutfield's Yard or its vicinity at precisely the time when Stride happened to be there.

[Jon Guy]

As the "Cut Throat" thread is morphing into a discussion around Michael Kidney's possible role in Stride's murder, I thought it better to open up the discussion here.

One of the difficulties I face with Kidney's candidacy as the killer of Liz Stride is this: how on earth did he find her? Note the green circles at top left and bottom right of this map:

[ATTACH]474[/ATTACH]

With the multiplicity of possible locations that separated Kidney's lodging house [top left] and the scene of the murder [bottom right], how on earth did he manage to track her down in Dutfield's Yard?

Hello

With regard to how Kidney may have attracted Stride`s location in Berner St.
His occupation is down as waterside labourer, and therefore, may have had reason to pass down Commercial Rd.

[c.d.]

Ben, really,

Every time someone says something negative about Hutchinson's candidacy, you don't have to jump in and defend him like he's your date to the prom.

That one made me laugh, Ally.

c.d.

[Ally]

Ben, really,

Every time someone says something negative about Hutchinson's candidacy, you don't have to jump in and defend him like he's your date to the prom.

[Fisherman]

"Again - we don't know what happened or what was said during Barnett's or (if he even was questioned) Kidney's interviews, so therefore we can't speak of them being 'fully investigated'."

Amen, cadet Andersson!

"As for the Kelly murder, that didn't happen within 45 minutes of an established Ripper murder the same night. This is what makes the Stride murder unique because the police linked it to the Eddowes murder and to the Ripper - this leaves room for the possibility that the domestic angle was crapped before it was fully investigated."

And that makes Amen number two; you could get religious for less!

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Tom,

No, the book won't contain any of my artwork (thanks for the kind words). I had a tough deadline, and I also found it more relevant to inlcude as much contempoary pictures as possible, although it contains a number of newly taken photos by Robert Clack on the sites to use as comparions to the old photos.

1) The police said that the statements and alibis of Stride's "closest associates" were looked into. She had no associate closer to her than Kidney.

Actually, 'associates' could mean anyone in her circuits, like friends or other relatives, and for a woman like Stride her friends at the doss houses would make just as valid 'associates' since those were the ones that knew her best since she didn't have any family in England. No doubt, Kidney wouldn't have been the only one included in that line-up. But as I said, even if Kidney was investigated, it doesn't mean they found that line of inquiry imporatnt. I think Swanson brushing the domestic angle all off with one single sentence kind of speaks for itself.
To repeat: the fact that the police almost immediately decided that it was a Ripper murder (no doubt based on the apparence of the Eddowes murder the same night), and that they were subjected to a lot of pressure, indicates that the anyone close to the victim wouldn't be viable as a suspect since they were looking for Jack the Ripper. Needless to say, that angle appears to have been scrapped rather quickly.

To add, we must remember that this was 1888. Even if a person might have been investigated and suspected, they would have needed proof and evidence to nail him for the murder unless he confessed to it or anyone saw him do it - alibi or not. The same must also be considered in Barnett's case.

2) He willingly took himself to the police station, so we have him standing in the police station.
3) He appeared as a witness at the inquest.

Well, the fact that he ent off to the police station and made an *ss of himself is actually one of main reasons for why I suspect him. Because this is type A behaviour for domestic killers - in practically nine cases out of ten the offender contacts the police himself (but often lets someone else find the body). It doesn't take any intelligence, simply because it's self preservation and isn't very intelligent at all (does Bury ring a bell?) - when domestic offenders contacts the police themselves today it generally makes the modern police suspicious immediately because it's based on experience that domestic killers do this.

Nor do I understand why him appearing at the inquest would be a valid point. He was called at the inquest, but as a witness and of course that wouldn't stop him from being a suspect (Leather Apron was called at the Chapman inquest while still being a suspect). The purpose of an inquest is not to accuse a suspect, but to sort out the circumstances, identify the victim and establish the cause of death.

4) Abberline headed up the Berner Street murder inquiry, just as he did the Millers Court inquiry. We know that Joe Barnett was fully investigated and his alibi confirmed. Is there any reason to suspect the same care wouldn't have been taken by the same investigators in the Stride murder?

What care? How do we know that Abberline and the police didn't screw up both investigations?
Again - we don't know what happened or what was said during Barnett's or (if he even was questioned) Kidney's interviews, so therefore we can't speak of them being 'fully investigated'. Not until the content of those interviews pop up from some archive can we establish if they were 'fully' investigated by OUR standards.
We must remember that even if they would be satisfactory investigated in 1888 doesn't mean those investigations would fit that criteria for us in 2008 - the handling of the Hutchinson statement, for example, would hardly be considered satisfactory by modern standards.
As for the Kelly murder, that didn't happen within 45 minutes of an established Ripper murder the same night. This is what makes the Stride murder unique because the police linked it to the Eddowes murder and to the Ripper - this leaves room for the possibility that the domestic angle was crapped before it was fully investigated.

All the best

[Ben]

Who said anything about Hutchinson?

[c.d.]

Jeez, Ben. Enough with Hutchinson. Take a day off now and then. Just chill, bro. Just chill.

c.d.

[Ben]

Errr...nope, they all most definitely "insinuated themselves into the investigation to throw the police off of the track". Rather than initiating another discussion on that topic, I was only responding to CD's suggestion that it required great intelligence to do so, but if anyone else wants to sart that ball rolling agan, I'm here. I'm playing.

If not, back to Kidney.

[Ally]

Oh here we go again with unsupportable claims about serial killers who did nothing of the kind....How's about keeping it on ONE thread.

[Ben]

Well it would appear that Kidney was one clever S.O.B. to come up with that ploy. It would seem to be right up there with Hutchinson insinuating himself into the investigation to throw the police off of the track.

Nah, CD, there was nothing especially clever about Koedatich, Ridgway, Huntley or Code, all of whom did pretty much that. Not that I favour Kidney for Stride's murder, but still...