Kidney - for and against

[Tom_Wescott]

The Chapman/Stride Connection

The altercation that took place in Berner Street that night does have more elements of this than a lone killer suprising his victim in the dead of night.

I would have to disagree. Schwartz reported following a man from Commercial Street into Berner Street. So this man was NOT following Stride. As the man reach the gates of Dutfield's Yard, he turned to talk to Stride. Either she initiated this, he was turning into the yard and found her in the way, or he happened to notice her standing in the dark and initiated the discussion. It was not a loud or angry discussion. There's absolutely nothing about this scenario that suggests an acquaintance of Stride's. Quite the opposite exactly, especially when one considers that the club and the street were not regular (or even semi-regular) haunts of hers. Moving on...we find Stride dead but otherwise not damaged. There was absolutely no sound of struggle or angry yelling heard by anyone nearby - and there were lots of people nearby. In short, there is absolutely nothing about the affair that suggests a domestic homicide.

The fact that BS Man manhandled Stride and she fell to the ground softly saying 'no' is used by many to figure in a person familiar with her. Let's consider a few facts:

* an enclosed yard overlooked by windows behind which people are living.
* a brief struggle in which the victim does not yell but only offers the softest of resistance.
* said woman found dead of a throat wound a while later.

The above not only describes the circumstances of the Stride murder, but also the crime previous to hers...Annie Chapman. Let's not forget that Albert Cadosche heard two people talking, someone softly saying 'no', and a thump against the fence. Transplant that scenario onto the pavement outside Dutfield's Yard and you have Schwartz's statement.

So, is the behavior described by Schwartz really as conflicting with Jack's as we've always believed? Another woman, Eddowes, was found murdered in a similar fashion only 45 minutes later and a hop and skip away. Unless Michael Kidney committed that murder as well, is there really any reason to suppose him more likely than the Ripper to have killed Stride?

Kidney was investigated, Kidney was cleared. Kidney was far too old to have been BS Man and would have looked it. Kidney had a very prominent moustache that would have been an identifying characteristic. BS Man did not have such a moustache. In order to put Kidney in frame, his supporters (or would that be detractors since they're accusing him of murder?) conclude that the police were inept and Schwartz got everything wrong. Lord knows this does happen a lot, but is there anything tangible to suggest that was the case here? No.

It is assumed by many that Kidney was regularly violently abusive towards Liz, but there's no evidence of this. None of her friends...not a one...is on record anywhere supporting this. Quite the contrary exactly.

In short, Kidney is very, very unlikely to have been the killer of Stride. Jack the Ripper, on the other hand...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cap'n Jack]

Sam, on the old boards I did find a very similar case - in the same time period and locality - to the Stride murder where an ex-boyfriend had followed the victim for most of the night, and as she stopped to talk to someone, he, in a fit of temper, walked past her and cut her throat with a single sweep, she collapsed into the gutter, and he walked on his way.
Now that is simple ain't it?

Another scenario is of course that Stride came under the protection of another pimp or bully after leaving Kidney, and that Kidney hearing of this went out that night to specifically threaten or harm Stride and her new pimp.
The altercation that took place in Berner Street that night does have more elements of this than a lone killer suprising his victim in the dead of night.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn asks:
"With the multiplicity of possible locations that separated Kidney's lodging house [top left] and the scene of the murder [bottom right], how on earth did he manage to track her down in Dutfield's Yard?"

That is, Sam, IF he really set out to track her down! There are always the haphazard possibilities offered by pure chance, and if we read the Starīs take on Schwartz walk down Berner Street, we get this picture:

"As he turned the corner from Commercial Road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alleyway where the body was found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her."

No mentioning of a purposeful walk on B S mans behalf here. It seems a lot more like sheer coincidence; he is tipsyly strolling along, and there she is, all of a sudden.

The other possibility would of course be that somebody in Kidneys circuit of aquaintances had seen Stride, appearing to be soliciting outside the yard. At the inquest, he gave the impression of having a number of friends, perhaps with a slightly questionable character, just as he would have done thousands of work-hours on the docks, gaining lots of aquaintances. Any of these aquaintances may of course have reported to Kidney having seen his ex-companion, and there you are.

If we are to elaborate on it, Kidney may even have told his friends to keep an eye out for Stride, along the lines: "Iīll be at the Ringerīs in the evenings. Make sure you tell me if you find her!". There was ample opportunity for him to make his mind up and do the walk to Berner Street, since Stride was there for a lengthy time. That would dissolve your mystery to a significant extent, I feel, just as it would put pressure on Kidney to show his friends that he was not going to take the insult of Stride leaving him light-heartedly.

With no proof, it is a realm of opportunities...

The best, Sam!
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

As the "Cut Throat" thread is morphing into a discussion around Michael Kidney's possible role in Stride's murder, I thought it better to open up the discussion here.

One of the difficulties I face with Kidney's candidacy as the killer of Liz Stride is this: how on earth did he find her? Note the green circles at top left and bottom right of this map:



With the multiplicity of possible locations that separated Kidney's lodging house [top left] and the scene of the murder [bottom right], how on earth did he manage to track her down in Dutfield's Yard?