Any known physical descriptions of Kidney?

[c.d.]

Hi Glenn,

Depsite your very annoying and condescending manner, I get your point. In fact, I agree with it. The problem I have is that you take it to extremes. You would have us believe that because it all got caught up in the context of a Ripper murder that the police simply abandoned basic police procedures and common sense. That is where we part company.

c.d.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Totally agree, C.D.

If there is one thing that we should have full confidence in the H Div boys and the `tecs was their ability to check out alibis, and looking people like Kidney in the eye.

yes, under normal circumstances. Considering the Eddowes murder appearing the same night and an apparent Ripper murder, these were not normal circumstances.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Glenn

As you will know Kidney stayed in a common Lodging House so if he was at "home" after midnight he may well have signed a register and numerous lodgers and a deputy could have vouched for him.

Hello Jon,

Are you sure of that Kidney stayed in a common lodging house at the time of the murder (note: not the time of the inquest)? Didn't Stride and Kidney live on a firm address, and that Stride had disappeared from there and left for the lodging house in Flower and Dean Street to avoid him? Just asking because I can't really remember - but I can't seem to recall that Stride and Kidney lived in a lodging house together. But I might be wrong.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Glenn,

Would I expect the Scotland Yard of 1888 to be able to do a sophisticated DNA analysis like they can in 2008? No. Would they be capable of asking someone where they were the night of a murder? Yeah, I think the boys could handle that but then again I may just be naive.

c.d.

Hi cd,

Well - AGAIN - that was NOT the point or the problem I addressed. I just tried to explain to you about the serial context killer and that this happened the same night as a Ripper murder and was treated as one. Although what Schwartz saw definitely could be viewed as a dolestic dispute, fact remains that it was almost immediately connected with the Eddowes murder. This was NOT the context of an ordinary domestic murder.
But once you missed the whole point I addressed and I have to admit I have lost all hope of getting it across to you.

[Jon Guy]

anymore than there is a suggestion that they thoroughly checked up on John Kelly's whereabouts at the time of Eddowes' murder.

Deputy Keeper, Wilkinson was asked to present the register for the Lodging House at the Eddowes inquest.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Sam

My assumptions are based upon the police reports that are available, such as interviewing the blind boy Dixon, and Sadler`s landlady from years previous, to name two examples from many. So it would be reasonable to assume they followed up the line of enquiry in the case of Kidney.

But yes, an assumption on my part.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sam,

You're right [OMG, I never thought I'd say that! It must be Christmas].

The LVP cops appeared to believe everybody—Kelly, Schwartz, Kidney, Hutchinson et al.

It makes sense. Think of all the paperwork they avoided.

Nadolig llawen a blwyddyn newydd dda.

Simon

[c.d.]

Again, we're assuming that the police went so far as to check, Jon. However, there's no suggestion that they did so - anymore than there is a suggestion that they thoroughly checked up on John Kelly's whereabouts at the time of Eddowes' murder.

Agreed, Sam. If we had evidence, we wouldn't be speculating. It comes down to a question of what is more probable. I also think it is unfair to compare Kidney and Kelly and the respective police suspicion. Lawende's description of what he saw could certainly be seen in the light of a domestic dispute. Kate's mutilation bore the earmarks of the Ripper.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

As you will know Kidney stayed in a common Lodging House so if he was at "home" after midnight he may well have signed a register and numerous lodgers and a deputy could have vouched for him.

Again, we're assuming that the police went so far as to check, Jon. However, there's no suggestion that they did so - anymore than there is a suggestion that they thoroughly checked up on John Kelly's whereabouts at the time of Eddowes' murder.

[Jon Guy]

Would I expect the Scotland Yard of 1888 to be able to do a sophisticated DNA analysis like they can in 2008? No. Would they be capable of asking someone where they were the night of a murder? Yeah, I think the boys could handle that but then again I may just be naive.

Totally agree, C.D.

If there is one thing that we should have full confidence in the H Div boys and the `tecs was their ability to check out alibis, and looking people like Kidney in the eye.

If only Sgt Badham had initially interviewed Colin Stagg.

[Jon Guy]

And remember - even if Kidney might have had an alibi, alibies can be faked.

Hello Glenn

As you will know Kidney stayed in a common Lodging House so if he was at "home" after midnight he may well have signed a register and numerous lodgers and a deputy could have vouched for him.

[c.d.]

Hi Glenn,

Would I expect the Scotland Yard of 1888 to be able to do a sophisticated DNA analysis like they can in 2008? No. Would they be capable of asking someone where they were the night of a murder? Yeah, I think the boys could handle that but then again I may just be naive.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

Possibly Ben, but then Anderson says "Not speaking as an expert in crime, but as a man who investigated the facts" and Anderson did do some hands on investigation in the Alice Mckenzie murder...

Sounds to me like both Swanson and Anderson were present

But I'm straying off topic better leave for later

Pirate

[Ben]

A nice idea is that the suspect reacted to the witness with mutual recognition, which would in turn have added weight to the value of the witness’s testimony

Possibly, but I'm not sure that's quite what was meant, Jeff.

"He knew he was identified" could simply mean that it was put to the suspect directly: "You have been identified by the witness" so as to eradicate any doubt over the matter. In that scenario, it could simply have been reported to Swanson that that had occured, rather than Swanson himself being there personally and registering a a look of "Bummer, it's that fella from the Imperial Club again!" on the countenance of the suspect.

All the best,
Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,
That's only if the witness had positively identified Kosminski, and I don't believe he did, or else he wouldn't have been allowed to get away with refusing to swear to the identification on the grounds that the suspect was a fellow Jew. If Lawende was asked to attend subsequent suspect IDs, it was because the Kosminski ID attempt was not successful.
Cheers,
Ben

"That Swanson was actually present at the identification might also be suggested by other comments, such as the observation that the suspect knew he’d been identified, which on the face of it seems a very daft remark to have made. If the suspect was in a line-up or on his own when confronted with the witness and the witness did something like touching him on the shoulder or pointing a finger at him and saying “that’s the bloke I saw” then the suspect could hardly have failed to know he’d been identified and one can only wonder why Swanson bothered to say something so obvious. But he did say it and he said it twice, so it seems to have had an importance for him which is not apparent. A nice idea is that the suspect reacted to the witness with mutual recognition, which would in turn have added weight to the value of the witness’s testimony, if not ultimately in court then certainly in the eyes of those present. But whatever the remark means, it may indicate that it was something Swanson witnessed"