Any known physical descriptions of Kidney?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Glenn

As you will know Kidney stayed in a common Lodging House so if he was at "home" after midnight he may well have signed a register and numerous lodgers and a deputy could have vouched for him.

Hello Jon,

Are you sure of that Kidney stayed in a common lodging house at the time of the murder (note: not the time of the inquest)? Didn't Stride and Kidney live on a firm address, and that Stride had disappeared from there and left for the lodging house in Flower and Dean Street to avoid him? Just asking because I can't really remember - but I can't seem to recall that Stride and Kidney lived in a lodging house together. But I might be wrong.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Totally agree, C.D.

If there is one thing that we should have full confidence in the H Div boys and the `tecs was their ability to check out alibis, and looking people like Kidney in the eye.

yes, under normal circumstances. Considering the Eddowes murder appearing the same night and an apparent Ripper murder, these were not normal circumstances.

All the best

[c.d.]

Hi Glenn,

Depsite your very annoying and condescending manner, I get your point. In fact, I agree with it. The problem I have is that you take it to extremes. You would have us believe that because it all got caught up in the context of a Ripper murder that the police simply abandoned basic police procedures and common sense. That is where we part company.

c.d.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Glenn

Kidney was living at 38 Dorset Street.

[Howard Brown]

I see the comments about the moustache being bandied around...

A man with a small brown moustache looks closer to a man with no moustache when compared with a veritable feather boa like Kidney had.

I know people who have known me for 30 years who didn't and/or wouldn't recognize me without a moustache.

Schwartz would have remembered whether the "small brown moustached man" resembled Kidney had he been face to face with Kidney. Whether he was or not is another argument altogether.

To me,unless Kidney was retarded,Kidney would be cognizant of his moustache had he seen Schwartz on the night of Long Liz's death and had he feared whether he would be ever face to face with the man at some point, as the killer of Stride, done something about it. Its common sense.

[c.d.]

Professor Brown,

I have not addressed you in some time. How are you, Sir?

A piece of advice -- common sense assumptions will get you into trouble around here. A word to the wise.

c.d.

[Ben]

Agreed on the 'tache front there, How, if I've read you correctly.

Hi all,

I've discussed the nature of common lodging houses before, but it really wouldn't have been a case of "signing in" when retiring to bed for the night. Most of these establishments catered for many individuals coming and going at irregular intervals throughout the night, and the chances of any doorman or deputy remembering a specific individual was very slim. Not that I'm in favour of Kidney as Stride's killer, but...

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Deputy Keeper, Wilkinson was asked to present the register for the Lodging House at the Eddowes inquest.

Indeed, Jon, at the inquest, and in answer to a specific question about whether any strangers had entered the lodging-house in the hours after Kate's murder. This question only arose during the inquest, it seems, and Wilkinson was asked to leave the chamber in order to retrieve his register. If it hadn't occurred to Crawford and/or the jurors to have asked the question, we might still be none the wiser - indeed, taken at face value, the fact that it took until then for the information to be requested might actually reflect rather poorly on the police. That aside, this episode by no means indicates that Kelly himself was under suspicion before the inquest itself.

[thewastelandr]

Even if asked where he had been, Kidney likely wouldn't have fessed up to killing his girlfriend. He could have made up a story and had a couple of mates back him up. Maybe this is a naive view, but wouldn't that be possible?

[Howard Brown]

Hey there,C.D. ! Long time no see..

Dear Ben & C.D.

I understand Glenn Andersson's position..and those who argue for Kidney-as-killer completely, if Schwartz' story was in fact fabricated or if Schwartz arbitrariliy tossed in the "moustache" considering the atmosphere...the possibility/probability that he had seen Stride's killer...all those little intangibles & elements which could have been instrumental in some way to 'allow" Schwartz to have seen things that weren't there.

But what convinces me that Schwartz did see a man with a moustache is that he describes not only the size,but the color of the moustache.

For anyone unfamiliar with the size of Kidney's moustache, which he had to have been maintaining for quite some time, its in SPE & Skinner's Ultimate.

Later guys and have a great Holiday season.

How

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Even if asked where he had been, Kidney likely wouldn't have fessed up to killing his girlfriend. He could have made up a story and had a couple of mates back him up. Maybe this is a naive view, but wouldn't that be possible?

That is definitely true and I agree with the possibility - crime history is littered with such situations. I don't see such a view as naivety at all. On the contrary.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But what convinces me that Schwartz did see a man with a moustache is that he describes not only the size,but the color of the moustache.

Hi Howard,

To be frank, I don't see how Schwartz describing those features would apply as evidence in any way of that he actually saw someone. Firstly, we are not talking very controversial or uncommon details here, and second, numerous false witnesses have produced detailed descriptions without necessarily telling the truth. After all, a witness - true or false - has to attribute the suspect with some details anyhow. And small brown moustache isn't really that ingenious for East End in 1888.
By that I am not saying that Schwarzie boy DID fabricate his story, only that there is nothing in it that proves or indicates that he didn't.

A great Christmas holiday to you too, Howie!

All the best

[Howard Brown]

Dear Glenn:

If Schwartz had seen a man....who did not have a moustache....but made up the story in line with how (as you mentioned) witnesses often invent elements which get included in their deposition...then Kidney ain't our huckleberry here. He had a major league moustache. I have no doubt that Schwartz at some point saw Kidney after Stride's death. Can I prove this? No way,Jose.

If Schwartz had seen a man with a moustache, then his description of the moustache is far from what Kidney had hanging over his piehole.

You commented:

"To be frank, I don't see how Schwartz describing those features would apply as evidence in any way of that he actually saw someone. Firstly, we are not talking very controversial or uncommon details here, and second, numerous false witnesses have produced detailed descriptions without necessarily telling the truth. After all, a witness - true or false - has to attribute the suspect with some details anyhow. And small brown moustache isn't really that ingenious for East End in 1888.
By that I am not saying that Schwarzie boy DID fabricate his story, only that there is nothing in it that proves or indicates that he didn't..."

The first sentence ( underlined) is true, if Schwartz made up his story. Evidently,the authorities believed his story...that being,that he did see someone who also possessed a small brown moustache according to Schwartz. If the authorities believed his story, then the moustache is included with what was believed to be factual. It is usually those of us who lean towards Kidney who dispute the detailing if it conflicts with their belief in Kidney's culpability. I'm not claiming or rather, insinuating, you are oblivious to the possibility that Schwartz was correct with his description,but invariably the counter argument to what Schwartz saw and the police believed him to have seen comes from the cadre that is firmly in the "domestic murder" corner. At least thats my impression.

The second sentence ( underlined) can be answered in this way ( not the only one ): Whats the first thing you notice about a man's face? Answer: Whether he has glasses on or has a moustache. The reason is probably that one is not born with either.

In the case of Schwartz, that he describes the machinations of BS Man...in a brief few seconds of intense activity...without being able to identify one of the two "indicators" ( glasses,which of course,Kidney is not known to have worn...or the moustache...is hard to fathom. Yet,according to Schwartz, the assailant did have one. Whether it was a small black one, small red one, or small brown one is less important, to me, than the size of the moustache.

Have the best Yule ever,Glenners

[Jon Guy]

- but I can't seem to recall that Stride and Kidney lived in a lodging house together. But I might be wrong.

Hello Glenn

I replied to you yesterday stating Kidney lived at a lodging house at 38 Dorset St. However, when I got home I had a look to see if no.38 Dorset St was a lodging house but in Sugden it said that this address was an error by the press.

Kidney and Stride lived in Devonshire St, and a few months previous to her murder they moved to another house in Devonshire St, where Stride eventually left him. So, Kidney was living in his own room, near Berner St !!!!

So, overnight my opinion of Kidney has changed.

He is a lying bastard and he killed Liz !!!!

[Jon Guy]

Indeed, Jon, at the inquest, and in answer to a specific question about whether any strangers had entered the lodging-house in the hours after Kate's murder. This question only arose during the inquest, it seems, and Wilkinson was asked to leave the chamber in order to retrieve his register. If it hadn't occurred to Crawford and/or the jurors to have asked the question, we might still be none the wiser - indeed, taken at face value, the fact that it took until then for the information to be requested might actually reflect rather poorly on the police. That aside, this episode by no means indicates that Kelly himself was under suspicion before the inquest itself.

I grant you that, Sam, it does appear to have taken Crawford, and not the police, to have requested the register.