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Hello all,
I wanted to address what Howard and Glenn were exploring If I may, on Schwartz's viability as a genuine witness.
Only a strong hunch, I dont know how or if it could be proven other than by a members register dated for that period, which in and of itself wouldnt be proof....anyway, I think its entirely possible that Schwartz was a club member, and that Wess might have interpreted for him...as he did for Goldstein apparently...another questionable tale, walking by a club he is a member of with empty cigarette cartons in his Gladstone and cigarette makers in the cottages in Dutfields Yard awake at the time.......but another day for that one. Tom Wescott suggested the link before, and I think it fits the reputation of the club more accurately when people are in that yard after a meeting. We know that was the pattern, by the neighbours comments.
If the events Schwartz describes took place in the yard, as he was leaving via the side door...(we know the front was locked at that time), rather than outside the gates, then any features that he offers about Broadshouldered man, beyond that one feature....broadshoulders, as perhaps seen from the back...could be fabrication anyway. It was dark, and if he entered the yard via the side door, saw a man with Liz inside the yard near the gates, the man from behind, then as he passes the couple Liz tries to leave via the gates and is pulled back, by her scarf, by Broadshouldered Man. She falls, inside the yard already...and the rest of the story, yada, yada... rolls on. Pipeman might have been inside the yard himself, and left as Schwartz did, now that it was getting a bit rough. Or maybe he does come in from the street and try to drag her out, and Schwartz sees that.
Point being...Kidney could well be that guy who shows up, all we might need to match is "Broadshoulders",... and that could be one reason that we dont have Schwartz's statement in his own hand preserved, or his translators rather, and why he was never called to repeat his story at the Inquest. We also know that his words were translated....by a club member with some importance, judging by the fact that he is the first person called to testify...before Diemshutz, Blackwell or Kidney even.
Wess might only have changed "just inside" to "just outside" the gates, and a few minor details. With or without Schwartz's agreement.
I think the tale is "changed", or shaped by Wess, and I think that if so, a scenario that has Kidney coming in via the gates, grabbing Liz who is waiting for a new beau inside, they argue, she falls, Schwartz leaves, Liz tries to get up and outside the gates, and is grabbed by her scarf and pulled off balance backwards. Her weight falls back on his arms, he twists her and with the hand free that pulled the knife from where it was tucked into his pants, and just lets her throat slide across his blade, dropping her, her own dead weight pressing her throat into the blade, and dictating the cuts depth and location. He pulls her back into the yard only because its darker and private.
Im suggesting that a scenario like that is plausible, has some thread of logic to it...including Schwartz saying he was looking to see if his wife had already finished their move, something that realistically was already complete many hours earlier in the day, instead of fessing up to attending the meeting and drinking instead, he is around 28 ish...not a stretch there, and if offers a perfectly plausible encounter with a jealous spurned lover that ends quickly and tragically. Meaning it explains why only a single wound is made. He didnt set out to kill her, it just happened, and he panicked and fled.
I think there is a good possibility Kidney was anti-semetic, and may have been refering to a Jew as the man he could catch if the police would give him some men to place about. And thats why he escalated so quickly to violence....it was one thing for her to dismiss him, it was another to do so for a Socialist Jew perhaps.
It also works for the cry of "Lipski"....if Kidney was the man saying it. And in an even bigger stretch,...it might make Kidney the author of the GSG,...where he went knowing club jews lived there in the Model dwellings.
Maybe he is trying to justify killing Liz because he was tring to get her away from "dangerous men" and she wouldnt listen.
Speculation...just for the jolly.
Cheers all.
I wanted to address what Howard and Glenn were exploring If I may, on Schwartz's viability as a genuine witness.
Only a strong hunch, I dont know how or if it could be proven other than by a members register dated for that period, which in and of itself wouldnt be proof....anyway, I think its entirely possible that Schwartz was a club member, and that Wess might have interpreted for him...as he did for Goldstein apparently...another questionable tale, walking by a club he is a member of with empty cigarette cartons in his Gladstone and cigarette makers in the cottages in Dutfields Yard awake at the time.......but another day for that one. Tom Wescott suggested the link before, and I think it fits the reputation of the club more accurately when people are in that yard after a meeting. We know that was the pattern, by the neighbours comments.
If the events Schwartz describes took place in the yard, as he was leaving via the side door...(we know the front was locked at that time), rather than outside the gates, then any features that he offers about Broadshouldered man, beyond that one feature....broadshoulders, as perhaps seen from the back...could be fabrication anyway. It was dark, and if he entered the yard via the side door, saw a man with Liz inside the yard near the gates, the man from behind, then as he passes the couple Liz tries to leave via the gates and is pulled back, by her scarf, by Broadshouldered Man. She falls, inside the yard already...and the rest of the story, yada, yada... rolls on. Pipeman might have been inside the yard himself, and left as Schwartz did, now that it was getting a bit rough. Or maybe he does come in from the street and try to drag her out, and Schwartz sees that.
Point being...Kidney could well be that guy who shows up, all we might need to match is "Broadshoulders",... and that could be one reason that we dont have Schwartz's statement in his own hand preserved, or his translators rather, and why he was never called to repeat his story at the Inquest. We also know that his words were translated....by a club member with some importance, judging by the fact that he is the first person called to testify...before Diemshutz, Blackwell or Kidney even.
Wess might only have changed "just inside" to "just outside" the gates, and a few minor details. With or without Schwartz's agreement.
I think the tale is "changed", or shaped by Wess, and I think that if so, a scenario that has Kidney coming in via the gates, grabbing Liz who is waiting for a new beau inside, they argue, she falls, Schwartz leaves, Liz tries to get up and outside the gates, and is grabbed by her scarf and pulled off balance backwards. Her weight falls back on his arms, he twists her and with the hand free that pulled the knife from where it was tucked into his pants, and just lets her throat slide across his blade, dropping her, her own dead weight pressing her throat into the blade, and dictating the cuts depth and location. He pulls her back into the yard only because its darker and private.
Im suggesting that a scenario like that is plausible, has some thread of logic to it...including Schwartz saying he was looking to see if his wife had already finished their move, something that realistically was already complete many hours earlier in the day, instead of fessing up to attending the meeting and drinking instead, he is around 28 ish...not a stretch there, and if offers a perfectly plausible encounter with a jealous spurned lover that ends quickly and tragically. Meaning it explains why only a single wound is made. He didnt set out to kill her, it just happened, and he panicked and fled.
I think there is a good possibility Kidney was anti-semetic, and may have been refering to a Jew as the man he could catch if the police would give him some men to place about. And thats why he escalated so quickly to violence....it was one thing for her to dismiss him, it was another to do so for a Socialist Jew perhaps.
It also works for the cry of "Lipski"....if Kidney was the man saying it. And in an even bigger stretch,...it might make Kidney the author of the GSG,...where he went knowing club jews lived there in the Model dwellings.
Maybe he is trying to justify killing Liz because he was tring to get her away from "dangerous men" and she wouldnt listen.
Speculation...just for the jolly.
Cheers all.
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