George or Jack

[Michael W Richards]

One thing about George....by showing up at the police station Monday after the Inquiry closed, he avoided being seen by any other witness related to the Kelly murder. That's Sarah....Mary Ann, Elizabeth, ...all witnesses that by vantage point were valuable stories in this investigation.

Heres one for you, just occurred to me now...what if George was a Pimp and he was there ensuring that Mary Ann and maybe Elizabeth were working.

[John G]

Naa. ive heard that before. Timings not right-I doubt hutch would have lingered around after he killed her.

Also, blotchy while described as short just like waiting man/hutch-but had a very distinctive look. I would have thought Abberline or someone would have picked up on it.

Hi Abby,

Yes, you make a fair point about Blotchy's distinctive complexion. However, I don't see a problem with timings. If Hutch was Blotchy he must have, for instance, made up the latter AS man sighting-as he would have murdered Kelly by that time- presumably to deflect attention away from himself following Cox's evidence.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Yes, you make a fair point about Blotchy's distinctive complexion. However, I don't see a problem with timings. If Hutch was Blotchy he must have made up the latter AS man sighting, presumably to deflect attention away from himself following Cox's evidence.

well I'm convinced That sarah Lewis saw him so IMHO he was there waiting and watching at the time they both said he was. and I believe he made up A man for whatever reason.

[John G]

well I'm convinced That sarah Lewis saw him so IMHO he was there waiting and watching at the time they both said he was. and I believe he made up A man for whatever reason.

Hi Abby,

Yes, that's an excellent point about Sarah Lewis, which I must admit I'd failed to consider. And it does seem very likely that, if he be did lie about A Man, it was Lewis's evidence that prompted him to come forward.

[Harry D]

Of course, if Hutchinson did come forward because he knew Sarah Lewis had seen him, that doesn't automatically make him a suspect. I think 'Astrakhan Man' was likely an embellishment, if not a total fabrication. However, he knew it didn't look him good for him to be caught sniffing around a crime-scene, innocent or no, and decided to come forward.

[keffins]

At 11:45 pm Mary Ann Cox,saw Kelly walking ahead of her with Blotchy.

As Cox went into her home, she heard Kelly starting to sing “A Violet from Mother’s Grave”. - She started singing immediately.

Catherine Pickett and her husband, remember hearing her singing at 12:30 am as well. Catherine remembered that she wanted to go shut Kelly up and her husband prevented her from doing so - possibly indicating rather loud singing.

If MJK had taken Blotchy for professional reasons, surely he would be bored of her singing after 2 or 3 minutes, never mind 3/4 of an hour - and would have wanted some "action".

At midnight, Cox went back out, and then came back an hour later at 1 am, the light was on in Kelly’s room and Cox could still hear her singing.
This is now 1 hour and 15 minutes of potentially loud singing and probably no action for Blotchy.
I just can't see him putting up with this and THEN murdering her. I feel if he was the killer, he would have snapped after 5 minutes or less.

[Michael W Richards]

Of course, if Hutchinson did come forward because he knew Sarah Lewis had seen him, that doesn't automatically make him a suspect. I think 'Astrakhan Man' was likely an embellishment, if not a total fabrication. However, he knew it didn't look him good for him to be caught sniffing around a crime-scene, innocent or no, and decided to come forward.

I believe that's the gist of George's situation also. I also believe he waited to come out of the woodwork because he didn't want any of the other witnesses to see him. The fact that he was watching vs just hanging around is a key point. That was a densely populated street and people out and about at night wouldn't be too surprising. In fact its interesting that so few were out that night.

But the watching for me indicates one of three things...1, he was a peeping tom waiting for a chance to peek through windows, 2, he was planning to do something in that court himself and was waiting something out...or he was watching out for someone.

[Michael W Richards]

At 11:45 pm Mary Ann Cox,saw Kelly walking ahead of her with Blotchy.

As Cox went into her home, she heard Kelly starting to sing “A Violet from Mother’s Grave”. - She started singing immediately.

Catherine Pickett and her husband, remember hearing her singing at 12:30 am as well. Catherine remembered that she wanted to go shut Kelly up and her husband prevented her from doing so - possibly indicating rather loud singing.

If MJK had taken Blotchy for professional reasons, surely he would be bored of her singing after 2 or 3 minutes, never mind 3/4 of an hour - and would have wanted some "action".

At midnight, Cox went back out, and then came back an hour later at 1 am, the light was on in Kelly’s room and Cox could still hear her singing. This is now 1 hour and 15 minutes of potentially loud singing and probably no action for Blotchy. I just can't see him putting up with this and THEN murdering her. I feel if he was the killer, he would have snapped after 5 minutes or less.

That part in bold is the best argument for Blotchy not having been a client. No-one pays street whores for concerts. I think Blotchy was to see Mary home, and then to report to someone else about her condition and the courtyards. he probably bought her drinks too.

The weakness for alcohol with all of these women, and hundreds others in the district, was something that could be used against them...I think Kate was bought drinks Saturday afternoon to get her to chat.

[Bridewell]

I'm in a minority of perhaps just me in thinking that Hutchinson saw what he says he did. What he noted (or claimed to note) about Astrakhan Man were the details which suggested that he was prosperous. I don't think he was waiting for MJK; more likely hoping to relieve Astrakhan Man of his valuables on his way out - in the circumstances (emerging from the room of a prostitute) he was guaranteed not to be interested in going to the police. Hutchinson as a low-life is likely - don't see him as the killer though.

[Wickerman]

well I'm convinced That sarah Lewis saw him so IMHO he was there waiting and watching at the time they both said he was. and I believe he made up A man for whatever reason.

I agree that Sarah L. saw Hutch, and if we can put "two & two together", so could Abberline. If that scenario had happened today the detectives would want Sarah L. to meet Hutch to confirm he was the man she saw.
I see no reason to believe Abberline would see it differently.

[Bridewell]

I agree that Sarah L. saw Hutch, and if we can put "two & two together", so could Abberline. If that scenario had happened today the detectives would want Sarah L. to meet Hutch to confirm he was the man she saw.
I see no reason to believe Abberline would see it differently.

I think I'm missing the point here, Jon. If Hutchinson puts himself there anyway, how would an ID by Sarah L do anything other than confirm something which Hutchinson wasn't disputing anyway?

[Wickerman]

Hi Keffins,
For me, the lookout theory is a non-starter.
.... I've never been able to fathom what need a killer in a private dwelling down a narrow court would have for a lookout.

Agreed, it makes no practical sense at that location.
By the time the lookout ran down the passage, alerted his buddy, and both came back up the passage. The constable would be right out front.

No-one has explained just how this 'lookout' theory is supposed to work.

[Wickerman]

I think I'm missing the point here, Jon. If Hutchinson puts himself there anyway, how would an ID by Sarah L do anything other than confirm something which Hutchinson wasn't disputing anyway?

The scenario has been proposed that Hutch made his story up based on the extremely detailed description he gave of Astrakhan.

If Abberline had cause to doubt Hutch, then at least he had Sara L. as his prime witness to confirm time & date of Hutchinson's presence.
Personally, I don't think Abberline doubted Hutch, but if he did, at least he had Sarah L. to reach out to.

[Wickerman]

I'm in a minority of perhaps just me in thinking that Hutchinson saw what he says he did.....

You're not alone, but we are a minority.
It is unfortunate that the court recorder did not provide more of Lewis's testimony. The newspapers who covered the inquest gave a little more detail.

For instance, Lewis saw a man & woman ahead of Hutch enter the passage. The female was the worst for drink & hat-less. Which seems confirm Hutch's story to that extent at least.
Hutch was there, and he saw someone with Kelly.

[Michael W Richards]

Agreed, it makes no practical sense at that location.
By the time the lookout ran down the passage, alerted his buddy, and both came back up the passage. The constable would be right out front.

No-one has explained just how this 'lookout' theory is supposed to work.

Workable scenarios arent that hard to imagine are they? I can think of a few off the top of my head;

a) Wideawake is sent to wait and watch until all the courtyard traffic had ceased for the night. Then he would let whomever eventually kills her that the "coast was clear"
b) Wideawake is to watch for anyone entering the courtyard while his associate is in the room, and something like whistle if it seems dangerous.
c) Wideawake is watching for Blotchy to leave.


Essentially all stories revolve around the Wideawake character making sure that whomever was in the room with Mary didnt get caught off guard by someone. Considering that much of his time is spent facing the partition wall and with his back to the windows and door, might have been a prudent idea. Though then you have 2 people who need to keep their mouth shut after the fact.

Im not convinced myself that Hutchinson was really Wideawake though. He uses an existing statement and unknown character and places himself at the scene in the same time frame, in the shoes of unknown Mr Wideawake. I agree with an earlier statement that an introduction of Sarah to George via a lineup would have been very interesting.

Why would he do that? Why place himself in a suspicious characters shoes? Dangerous game. And with an obviously embellished.. at the very least... story.

I suspect he was sent in by someone he feared to explain why someone was seen there watching the court, making it appear benign...instead of waiting for the police to pursue further the notion that the lookout and killer worked together. They may also have been known by police to have worked together, which is why identifying one might have identified both.