A closer look at George Hutchinson

[Abby Normal]

I wonder what was meant by Hutchinson being of "military appearance"?

And does this conflict with Sarah Lewis's description of a short and stout man?

Hi Harry
i think it was "militarty bearing" whatever that means-I guess he gave the reporter the impression he was ex/military? but no I dont think it would preclude him from being short and stout.

[barnflatwyngarde]

i've read that article and seems a bit of a stretch as the crux of the argument seems to be hutch couldn't have made those observations because it was raining that night. What hutch saw probably spanned a very short amount of time, could have just been spotting with rain or have stopped at that time. I believe the heavy rain wasn't noted until later. That being said, hutch wasn't given hard labour or other sentence for time wasting like some others that came forward, so the police must have believed him to a certain extent but also had reason to question his statement for some reason

Fair enough points Aeth, but the most telling point against Hutchinson's testimony is surely the fact that shortly after he claimed to have seen an individual who, if his statement was true and accurate, was probably Jack the Ripper, Hutchinson vanishes from all police attempts to track down the killer.

I think the likelihood is that after some searching questions from the police, the realisation dawned on them that Hutchinson had simply got his dates wrong.

Nothing dramatic, nothing conspiratorial, just a mistake!

[Abby Normal]

Of course if Hutchinson was mistaken about the day, the whole thing falls apart.

Walter Dew certainly thought that Hutchinson was mistaken.

In issue five of "The Casebook Examiner", Christer Holmgren wrote an excellent article which raises very serious doubts about Hutchinson's story.

hi barn
yeah I think that was probably another of dews screw ups. Hutch was there- his story is corroberated by sarah lewis who saw him standing across the court-"waiting and watching as if he were looking for someone to come out". exactly what hutch said he was doing at the time.
he was there that night, but the aman part of it is probably BS.

[Aethelwulf]

Fair enough points Aeth, but the most telling point against Hutchinson's testimony is surely the fact that shortly after he claimed to have seen an individual who, if his statement was true and accurate, was probably Jack the Ripper, Hutchinson vanishes from all police attempts to track down the killer.

I think the likelihood is that after some searching questions from the police, the realisation dawned on them that Hutchinson had simply got his dates wrong.

Nothing dramatic, nothing conspiratorial, just a mistake!

could be but i'm not a fan of theories that are a bit of a kop out - 'he got the dates wrong' being an example. Same goes for Maxwell - seems impossible that speaking to the police the same day she was mistaken.

On the dates wrong theory, also worth noting that Fisherman wrote that article, he thinks lech was the ripper, so it's in his interest to discredit hutch as Lech seems a hugely unlikely candidate for Aman.

[Sunny Delight]

One part of George Hutchinson being the killer that doesn't make sense is this. Do those who advocate that he was the killer believe he didn't meet Kelly but instead happened across her standing talking with AK man? And if AK man didn't exist was he standing at Crossingham's watching the Court in preparation of attacking Kelly? Lay out how this works. If he did meet Kelly as he said then why if he was the killer did he not immediately accept her proposition? Why turn her down and only when another man appears does he then proceed to follow them, hang around outside for a while and then enter the Court to do what- attack Kelly? Lay out the scenario.

[barnflatwyngarde]

could be but i'm not a fan of theories that are a bit of a kop out - 'he got the dates wrong' being an example. Same goes for Maxwell - seems impossible that speaking to the police the same day she was mistaken.

On the dates wrong theory, also worth noting that Fisherman wrote that article, he thinks lech was the ripper, so it's in his interest to discredit hutch as Lech seems a hugely unlikely candidate for Aman.

Has anyone expressed an opinion as to why Hutchinson vanishes so quickly from the case?

One minute he's the witness who can positively identify the killer, and his very specific clothing. The next minute the police appear to drop him like a hot potato.

Surely the most likely explanation is that the police came to the conclusion that he was wrong.

[Abby Normal]

Has anyone expressed an opinion as to why Hutchinson vanishes so quickly from the case?

One minute he's the witness who can positively identify the killer, and his very specific clothing. The next minute the police appear to drop him like a hot potato.

Surely the most likely explanation is that the police came to the conclusion that he was wrong.

hi barn
they probably came to the conclusion that he was a lying time waster, like packer or violenia

[Wickerman]

If "Astrakhan Man" did exist, wouldn't he have caught Sarah Lewis' attention? She described seeing a couple, but nothing about the male was noteworthy enough for her to comment on. It's already been pointed out that such a figure would've stood out like a sore thumb.

True, but Lewis said this couple was "further on", and as she was walking along behind them, and this was 2:15-2:30'ish or thereabouts, basically dark on an ill-lit street, she was in no position to give a detailed description of the couple except to notice the female wore no hat & was 'the worse for drink'.

[Wickerman]

Has anyone expressed an opinion as to why Hutchinson vanishes so quickly from the case?

One minute he's the witness who can positively identify the killer, and his very specific clothing. The next minute the police appear to drop him like a hot potato.

Surely the most likely explanation is that the police came to the conclusion that he was wrong.

The press reported (the Echo?) on the 19th that they were still looking for both suspects, Blotchy & Astrakhan, so at least a week following the inquest.
If we look back at the previous cases, those witnesses are not heard from again either, though no-one takes that as suspicious.

In fact it's only Lawende (though the name is not given) who was still helping police long after his initial testimony was given.

We have no idea if Hutchinson vanished, that is a modern assumption.

[barnflatwyngarde]

The press reported (the Echo?) on the 19th that they were still looking for both suspects, Blotchy & Astrakhan, so at least a week following the inquest.
If we look back at the previous cases, those witnesses are not heard from again either, though no-one takes that as suspicious.

In fact it's only Lawende (though the name is not given) who was still helping police long after his initial testimony was given.

We have no idea if Hutchinson vanished, that is a modern assumption.

Hi Wick, thanks for this..

We can't escape the fact that someone who, said that he saw Mary Jane with a prime suspect, becomes very quickly, from the police point of view, a seemingly unimportant person.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Wick, thanks for this..

We can't escape the fact that someone who, said that he saw Mary Jane with a prime suspect, becomes very quickly, from the police point of view, a seemingly unimportant person.

it could of course be something quite straightforward. If you look at the fairly credible sightings of by Lawende and Schwartz, they suggest someone of low to middling sort of class. Aman seems to be from a completely different class based on his clothes (affluent, nice clothes, disposable income to spend on jewelery). It could just be that on further consideration they considered Aman a red herring, perhaps someone in town for the LM's show, and so dropped that line.

I think the idea that hutch was essentially there but made up Aman a bit weak. A witness sees a man lurking (seemingly hutch) with a look of waiting for someone to come out, as he said. i think hutch probs was there, waiting to see aman leave, possibly to mug him or just curious about an oddly dressed stranger, who probably was killer, who waits an hour or so until she is asleep and ...

[Wickerman]

Hi Wick, thanks for this..

We can't escape the fact that someone who, said that he saw Mary Jane with a prime suspect, becomes very quickly, from the police point of view, a seemingly unimportant person.

Hardly unimportant, Abberline had not forgotten Hutchinson's statement, in fact as late as Dec. 6 1888 a man answering the description of Astrachan was arrested by Scotland Yard. This was Josef Isaacs, a middle-aged Jew who the press described as one who...."answered to the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat".
London Standard, 8 Dec. 1888.

So it can't easily be argued that Hutchinson was ditched by police, or that he was deemed to be a liar or purely inventing a suspect that didn't exist. Abberline believed him, as he wrote in his report to head office, and this press account corroborates that fact.
As it turned out the suspect was not Isaacs, but it proves the police still held Hutchinson's statement as reliable almost a month after the murder.

[Sunny Delight]

Hardly unimportant, Abberline had not forgotten Hutchinson's statement, in fact as late as Dec. 6 1888 a man answering the description of Astrachan was arrested by Scotland Yard. This was Josef Isaacs, a middle-aged Jew who the press described as one who...."answered to the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat".
London Standard, 8 Dec. 1888.

So it can't easily be argued that Hutchinson was ditched by police, or that he was deemed to be a liar or purely inventing a suspect that didn't exist. Abberline believed him, as he wrote in his report to head office, and this press account corroborates that fact.
As it turned out the suspect was not Isaacs, but it proves the police still held Hutchinson's statement as reliable almost a month after the murder.

Exactly Wick and something that is conveniently discarded by those attempted to apportion blame towards George Hutchinson. Another is that AK man was too fantastical to be real and there couldn't possibly have been such a well dressed man in that area at that time. But indeed here was Abberline- with more knowledge about the East End in his fingertip than all the Ripperplogists combined- who felt this was not an issue or at least in his covering note not worthy of explanation. Booth's map is crucial in this regard. The red denotes well do to do middle class folk and there is quite a bit of it. Stereotypical ill- defining the East End as only containing criminals and the destitute does it a massive disservice.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder what was meant by Hutchinson being of "military appearance"?

And does this conflict with Sarah Lewis's description of a short and stout man?

The ‘stout’ part is interesting Harry when we consider BS man in Berner Street.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a few questions..

1. Does the fact that Hutchinson didn't come forward until the Inquest was over lessen his credibility?
2. Why would Kelly have asked specifically for sixpence at 2am?
3. I accept of course that not everyone finds it strange but does anyone else find it strange that Hutchison stooped down to look him in the face? It’s probably unimportant but it just seems like strange behaviour that apparently elicited no response from either AM or Kelly.
4. Kelly apparently needed money; she met AM near Thrawl Street then headed back to Miller’s Court with Hutchinson following. Why would they have stood outside Miller’s Court talking for three minutes before going inside?
5. Why would Hutchinson have gone into Miller’s Court to see if he could see them? Surely he’d have realised that they’d have gone into Kelly’s room? Hutchinson knew Kelly after all.