Could Hutchinson have been a minder?

[Ben]

Also, with Ada`s story, like Kelly, we have a prostitute attacked with a knife in her room after midnight.

Absolutely, Jon, and I'd be inclined to view Rose Bierman's account of the attack as the more reliable. The whole "robbery" incident alleged by Wilson may have been her attempt to disguise the fact that she was bringing clients home. Here's Bierman's account:

http://www.casebook.org/witnesses/rose-bierman.html

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

Thank you Jon,
I will check the maps again.
I'm not sure we are off this thread. We just point out that Wideawake Hat, ie a man loitering in front of Miller's court just before the murder, is a possible suspect, and that Hutch is a possible Wideawake Hat.
In other terms, Sarah Lewis testimony makes Hutch suspectful, even more than his over-detailed description of a flashy wealthy Jew that noone saw except him... And as already said, dismissing Lewis does not clear Hutch. That's why we don't understand how the police could neglect both Lewis and Hutch without suspecting Hutch.
One explanation would be they were too much busy with various trails at the time. Besides, the fact that Hutch's statement is at least partly true (he eventually loitered near to Mary's home) could help to confuse Abberline.
As to Mrs Fiddymont's suspect, I doubt whether there is some link here. The man had been observed quite a long while, and is said to be "between 40 and 50". (Anyway, it's a pity the identification with the Pork Butcher will never be cleared because of this Dr Mickles).But the sighting of Emma Smith in Burdett Road (by Margaret Hames/Hayes, I think) is more interesting, for it shows how the prostitutes (and their customers) of Spitalfields were well acquainted with other areas such as Mile End-Bow (sorry, I'll check the maps soon!).
So, reminding Ben's last post, we have two elements possibly linking Hutch to the Mile End-Burdett road area: the "watch-theft" case, and the wideawake hat.
Many thanks,
DVV

[Jon Guy]

Ca`va DVV

For modern street maps try :

google maps

or

maps.google.co.uk.

type in Burdett Road Bow

Hope this helps

[Sam Flynn]

maps.google.co.uk.

type in Burdett Road Bow

...better still, "Bow Common Lane" and look for the junction with Burdett Road. As far as I can tell, this is roughly the area in which Maidman Street would have been located, although it's not there now. Frustratingly, I haven't been able to locate it on maps of the period, but Charles Booth's notebook entry referring to Maidman Street took in nearby streets which I have been able to identify in the vicinity.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks to Roy Corduroy on another thread (here), we have a map that shows precisely where Maidman Street was. Thanks again, Roy.

Maidman Street once adjoined Eric Road, but no longer exists. If you Google for "Eric Road", you'll get as near as dammit to where it once stood. Maidman Street circled in red below in an excerpt from the map Roy identified:



Given that this is a Hutchinson thread, I'd better lob in a nugget of possible on-topic interest. You'll note that just to the North of Maidman Street is Rhondda Grove (blue arrow in map above). Until the 20th Century, Rhondda Grove (Bow/Mile End) was known as... "Cottage Grove", which may ring a bell with a few Old Hutchinsonians



Edit: I note that Ben has already observed that George Hutchinson (watch-stealer) lived a stone's throw away from Maidman Street. At least I now know precisely how far he would have had to have thrown that stone!

[DVV]

Hi all
and thanks Jon. I confess I use google maps for ethiopian studies, trying to solve my maps problem (not to talk about google).
Happy to see Sam Flynn here. I believe this thread is worth to go further, so I'm really thankful.
I've read the 2006-7 discussions about Huttchinson.
And I firmly believe there is still space for discussion.
The problem, is that Sam Flynn and Ben's posts have systematically been answered by the same argument: Abbertline's "infallibillibillity".
Believe it or not, but by hammering the same non-sense, those who take Abberline as the Roman Pope eventually closed the discussion about Hutch's status.
But why shall we?
All thoughts are welcome, but please, the Abberline Infallabillity is ridiculous.
On the other hand, Caz' reasonnings (ie: the way GH injected himself doesn't make him a suspect) were very nice.
Still, everybody knows how delicate is the witness status in the Ripper case.
But who will show us a more questionable witness than Hutch?

PS: No need fot Barnettians to answer this one...

[DVV]

Hi all
and thanks Jon. I confess I use google maps for ethiopian studies, trying to solve my maps problem (not to talk about google).
Happy to see Sam Flynn here. I believe this thread is worth to go further, so I'm really thankful.
I've read the 2006-7 discussions about Hutchinson.
And I firmly believe there is still space for discussion.
The problem, is that Sam Flynn and Ben's posts have systematically been answered by the same argument: Abbertline's "infallibillibillity".
Believe it or not, but hammering this, those who take Abberline as the Roman Pope eventually closed the discussion about Hutch's status.
But why shall we?
All thoughts are welcome, but please, the Abberline Infallabillity is ridiculous.
On the other hand, Caz' reasonnings (ie: the way GH injected himself doesn't make him a suspect) were very nice.
Still, everybody knows how delicate is the witness status in the Ripper case.
But who will show us a more questionable witness than Hutch?

PS: No need fot Barnettians to answer this one...
DVV (aka Fu Manchu)

[Rob Clack]

Maidman Street was built in the early 1870s. I took this photo on roughly where Maidman Street was on a cold day in February. This is looking towards the Mile End Road.



Rob

[Roy Corduroy]

Great photo, Rob. Here's the historical view.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

... "Cottage Grove", which may ring a bell with a few Old Hutchinsonians

These photos and maps came from the East London Historical Society website.

Roy

http://www.mernick.co.uk/elhs/ELHS.htm

[Ben]

Blimey, Gareth! I thought something in the air gave me the creeps when I headed up Tredegar Square (see map) to meet the lady who would produce my voice-over CD.

Thanks for the maps and photos, guys.

[caz]

Hello Ben,
you seem absolutely correct. If Hutchinson was known to be a minder or an informer, Abberline would have mention it in his report (since he states: "H is at present in no regular employment").
It's also true that after some time, his testimony was no more considered as "important" , as already showed in previous posts (come-back of Blotchy Face, recalls of Schwarz and Lawende, etc). I'd like to point the contradiction of the adjectives "true" and "important" in Abberline's report, in the case of Hutchinson: 'cause indeed, if GH's testimony is "true", then GH is the most important witness of all, not only important. How many suspects discussed here could be dismissed, if so?
In any case, if Hutch has a chance to be this Wideawake Hat seen by Sarah Lewis, he can be reasonably considered a suspect in MK's murder.
On the other hand, if Sarah Lewis is a mere liar, iand this Wideawake Hat never existed, then nobody at all has seen Hutchinson on the spot, though he claimed to have stayed 45 minutes there.
Quite illogically, the police seems to have neglected both Lewis and Hutch, who soon disappear from the enquiry, unlike the sept. 30's witness.
As a coincidence, we may remind that Ada Wilson's offender wore a wideawake hat.
Thanks all, and sorry for broken english
DVV (aka Fu Manchu)

Hi DVV,

Your English is fine - easier to understand than quite a few English speakers in fact.

Of course, if Hutch had been acting as a casual minder for McCarthy's unfortunate residents and their clients because of the ripper scare, that could not be classed as 'regular' employment, especially as he would have been deserting his post to go job-seeking in Romford.

While Abberline would no doubt have informed his colleagues and superiors if casual work of such a nature had come up during Hutch’s interrogation, I’m still not convinced it would inevitably have been entered into the record, since at the time manpower was needed to catch the killer, not to be sidetracked into an investigation of all McCarthy’s business practices, as might have resulted from a formal reference to them appearing in a police report.

If, when checking the details of Hutch’s account, it emerged that he was still in Romford seeking work when MJK was murdered, I could certainly see them saying, “The silly sod got his dates muddled. The irony is that if he hadn’t gone off to look for a decent living in Romford, he might have managed to deter the real monster, Mr Blotchy.”

Love,

Caz
X

PS I think this has been raised before, but while a Spitalfields resident might have been able to judge fairly accurately the age of a jobless fellow resident or manual labourer, from his clothes or physique, they might well have underestimated, perhaps by several years, the age of a clerk, for instance, or shop keeper, or anyone who enjoyed a better standard of living.

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

I’m still not convinced it would inevitably have been entered into the record, since at the time manpower was needed to catch the killer

If Hutchinson had been employed as a minder and informed Abberline about it, that pertinent detail would certainly have been shared with his police colleagues in an internal, confidential missive. Otherwise, Abberline would have been withholding information for no good reason at all. The report, remember, was entirely confidential and intended for police consumption only. In that sense, it was very much "off the record".

If Hutchinson was employed in such a capacity, Abberline had an professional obligation to pass it on at the earliest opportunity rather than deciding which bits weren't important enough (or were worth suppressing or even lying about) for the sake of convenience. That's how the interests of justice are often retarded.

I think we also have to be careful of adopting the mentality that any highly speculative scenario will suffice providing it avoids at all costs the possibility of Hutchinson being considered a suspect.

Best regards,
Ben

[DVV]

Hi all,
and thanks ,Caz, for your kind words about my English. May be half true, but completely sweet!

Suggesting GH as a minder was a reasonable conjecture to me, and I believe this discussion came to some result.

Let alone the good arguments previously exchanged from both sides, don't you think, at last, that we have to safely come back to the behaviour of GH, and admit that he did not at all act like a minder?

Remember the night was cold (I remember AP wrote GH would have died, had he been waiting so long in the street!), and GH said he had no money, no place to sleep.
Then Kelly took a wealthy-looking man home. A man with gold.

What would have been the thoughts of a minder without money, at this time?
Simply: "I will wait until the man's gone, then I will try to get some pence from Mary, or ask her to share the room for a rest". (And since he said he has given some money to Mary at some times, he had not to be uneasy to ask such a help).
But he apparently thought that there was no hope for him to get anything from Mary.
And he did not take care of her security.
He did go...(to nowhere, I would add)
So he is not a minder.
Unless he was day-off on november 9...

Many thanks,
Amitiés,
DVV

[joelhall]

while i have my own suspicions over who hutchinson really was, and a sneaking suspicion that 'skinflint' mccarthy was knocking kelly off to allow so much debt to accrue, this sounds certainly like one of the less far-fetched senarios than otherwise meets the eye.

the role of the 'minder' for want of a better word, perhaps 'enforcer' is better, would be to see if she was with anyone, earning cash (hanging about for 45 minutes would confirm to hutchinson, maybe with a sneeky ear to the broken window, that she was), so she couldnt tell her ponce the next day she had no money (so the collector comes round to knock her up for the cash, even looking through the window to see if shes hiding).

no doubt he remembers all this, so mac can say the next day when she plays dumb 'so what about this dapper chap last night...?' obviously if he did hed lose the misplaced trust of the girls, so he doesnt like his identity to get out (hence the story with missing parts he gave). of course he only went to the old bill as eventually guilt got to him...

i could go on, but its a nice little teaser youve put there it fits, its not fanciful.

the only problem is lack of proof, which is why im not going to go for it im afraid.

nice thinking though

joel