Could Hutchinson have been a minder?

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Ben,
I would prefer you didnt decontexualise----thats all I will say.
I am astonished that you say "what about Swanson------thats who I was referring to when I said "Swansong" -never mind-
Yes,but Swanson was Anderson"s loyal underling.He was clearly quite confused,judging from the marginalia.Wasnt quite sure what Anderson was on about.At least that is how it reads to me.He is tentative to say the least.


Anyway,I would like to ask you a question.Have you been and looked at the Ripper files in Kew Public Record Office?
Because if you have you will see what I am talking about.There is no doubt that a doctor was being looked for.I am not saying they were right.I am not saying that they may have changed their tune later on ,but file after file references them looking for a doctor,or a student doctor or three student doctors, or an American doctor who had been asking about buying organs,or an Irish doctor who was in America and had been due to arrive at such and such a time in Liverpool and thats not all of them,they were also looking for a doctor in France--------
Its worth your while having a look at that file before you tell me that they were not looking for a doctor in 1888/9.


With regard to Macnaghten,he may have had inside information on Druitt.We dont know. I often wonder if he tacked the "doctor" bit on to impress people,because they were indeed persuaded for a while that the crimes were committed by a doctor.


Aaron Kosminski was possibly the City suspect.He was probably acting very oddly.But he wasnt the Ripper.Maybe another Kosminski was the Ripper,but not Aaron. David Cohen "might" have been.Thats more like it, I must admit.But where is the evidence on either?And yes---I do mean "evidence".Because Abberline, Dew, and very importantly the Chief Commissioner of Police in the City, Major Henry Smith,who went to Mitre Square himself on the night of the murder and must have been aware of the City Suspect,poured scorn on Anderson"s theory and wrote a long tirade ridiculing the idea of anyone in the Jewish Community daring to hide the Ripper to "shield him from gentile justice . [ BTW -decontextualise this paragraph and it will lose my meaning and could be interpreted in a racist way which I would seriously not want].

Regarding the theory of strangulation that was discussed by the medics.They were talking about certain bruises and how they had been acquired.Its all in the Ultimate JtR-towards the end.
But you are obviously entitled to continue with your belief that he was just a crude butcher who depended on luck and those who dont hold to such a view are entitled to defend their ideas as well.

Cheers Ben,
Natalie

[Ben]

Hi Natalie,

Swanson was technically a subordinate of Anderson, but like Bond, he was no hapless sponge. H was a competent senior police official who had immediate overall command of the Whitechapel murder investigation. He certainly wouldn't have endorsed a theory purely for the sake of agreeing with Anderson. If he thought Kosminski was the killer (and we don't know that he did), it would have been for reasons of his own.

I don't dispute for a moment that the police were looking for a doctor suspect at one stage. If I had been a policeman with any clout in the wake of the Hanbury Street murder, I too would have placed some investigative focus on doctors. Why? Because the doctor at the most recent murder had implicated a member of this profession.

In those days, I wouldn't even have had the luxury of a warning bell that numerous other serial killers have been suspected of having medical knowledge only for the "caught" reality to prove otherwise. If, however, I learned from subsequent medical insight that the "doctor" theory wasn't shared by the vast majority of medical officials, I'd then be inclined to put doctor suspects on the back burner. In the Hanbury Street case, matters weren't helped by a coroner arriving at a clearly errant conclusion over the American doctor trying to procur organs; the implication being that the killer had gone a' harvestin for this man. Fortunately, this theory proved immediately unpopular, with one reputable medical journal explicitly criticising it, and it was apparently dropped pretty promptly thereafter.

The Kosminski theory wasn't hugely popular - in fact, every police suspect theory was minority-endorsed, but it seemed to enjoy more support than the Druitt theory, which only Macnaghten appeared to favour.

But you are obviously entitled to continue with your belief that he was just a crude butcher who depended on luck and those who dont hold to such a view are entitled to defend their ideas as well

Absolutely, Nats.

Best wishes,
Ben

[perrymason]

Since you two are addressing police suspicions of a medical man, perhaps instead of using Macnaugten Brand "Canon" Powder, ..look at victims, not at a series.

There are murders within the Canon, and outside of it, that definitely required some knowledge of anatomy IMHO, and some dexterity with a sharp knife....regardless of the later contradictions of those findings by a man present for none of the Post Mortems on victims that displayed those kinds of qualities in their injuries.

I think Nats is absolutely on the money suggesting that medical angle was pursued very vigorously.

Why did it take students of these crimes so long to spot Tumblety right there in the thick of things in the press at the time?....cause Madman won over strange Fraud Doctor Uterus Collector in the press. No pattern that was present in earlier kills was pursued any further after Mary Jane. You couldnt make sense out of any early patterns if the same man did her...obviously just a dangerous, deranged nut.

But no-one can tell me Annies Killer wasnt at least semi-skilled, and I think Id say the same for Kates, primarily due to the kidney. Im not sure if Kate was a Ripper victim at times, nor am I sure Polly's killer wasnt finished rather than interrupted, but I think the guy who wanted into womens abdomens on the streets at night is the guy I think of as this "Jack" fellow.

Best regards.

[Ben]

But no-one can tell me Annies Killer wasnt at least semi-skilled, and I think Id say the same for Kates

If he was semi-skilled, Mike, it was more than likely "semi skill" that resulted from practice at killing prostitutes. That's where a "dexterity" with a knife came in, by honing his knifing/killing skills and progressing accordingly. No need to look for a ready-made product for which there is little precedent in the annals of serial crime. I'm afraid there's nothing to support the opinion that the killer (of any of the victims) "definitely" had some knowledge of anatomy.

This is most odd. Most non-Hutchinson threads eventually turn into Hutchinson threads. As this one's done the precise opposite, I might recommend drawing a discreet veil over the "medical" debate and returning to the premise of the thread.

All the best,
Ben

[brummie]

Checking through Evans & skinners excellent Jack The Ripper Sourcebook again i note from Abberlines report on his interrogation of Hutchinson that he claimed Hutchinson,despite only knowing Kelly 3 years and not in 'regular employment', had occasionaly given Kelly 'a few shillings' at a time when a few shillings in that part of London was a considerable amount. Does this mean that Hutch was a regular customer of Kelly,because it seem a strange thing for an aquaintance to be doing with little hope of it being repaid.

[Sam Flynn]

Hutchinson,despite only knowing Kelly 3 years... had occasionaly given Kelly 'a few shillings'. Does this mean that Hutch was a regular customer of Kelly,because it seem a strange thing for an aquaintance to be doing with little hope of it being repaid.

Hi Brummie,

I've previously mused that "a few shillings" was more like what a man might pay out as an allowance to an ex-wife or partner. It seems that "a few shillings" might have been a steep sum to pay for the services of an East End prostitute, when a single shilling might buy one two or three such "transactions". Even allowing for Kelly's relative youth and apparently attractive appearance, a few shillings still sounds a bit high, especially for a labourer/groom earning not much more than 16 shillings per week.

[perrymason]

Im sure its occurred to most if not all that anything Hutchinson said has to be weighed carefully....very carefully. He says he knew Mary....he says he gave her money....he also said he saw her out with a "dandy" at 2:00am the night she dies.

Hutchinson appears from nowhere almost 4 days late claiming friendship and his past generosity to the murdered woman...and if true, likely the most important sighting of a killer of Whitechapel whores on record.

They dont jive. Friendship.....and yet a 4 day delay with the best sighting of a Canon killer ever....nothing about him seems right.

Unbelievably detailed suspect description, places himself in possibly the shoes of a suspicious man seen by Sarah Lewis....and offers no real justification for his loitering and watching other than just curiosity. He didnt say he was making sure Mary was ok....or that she might need help...he just watched the court. After walking all day. After 2am.

Best regards.

[Natalie Severn]

Can I whisper something in your ear Mike.........the cops knew him

[caz]

Hi Nats,

I find that a very plausible explanation for Abberline's initial acceptance of Hutch's statement.

I also like this idea of Hutch being a 'minder'. Everyone thought they would know the murderer if they encountered him and equally they assumed they could recognise an innocent man. I see no problem with the concept of Hutch being a male 'presence' in or around the court, if the idea was merely to deter the killer from trying his luck there. Regular punters with no malice aforethought need not have been put off, if the very purpose was to help the resident unfortunates continue to go about their normal business, legitimate or otherwise, at the height of the scare. The punters would actually feel safe too, if Hutch greeted them importantly with a cheery "Evenin' mate - I'll keep me lamps open for you, for coppers and Jack the Ripper". "Ta George. You're a star."

The major fly in the ointment is that we don't have a record of anyone saying that Hutch was acting in such a capacity. But then we don't have a record of anyone saying anything about the man, his movements or activities, even after his account was splashed all over the papers. Which may or may not be odd in itself.

I still think a lot must have happened off the record (in the literal sense of it not being recorded by anyone at any time or in any way), or was recorded privately and is now missing. Regardless of Ben's insistence that 'off the record' can only ever mean 'on the record' (but just not available to the public yet), when I refer to stuff being 'off the record', I simply mean stuff like the interrogation of Hutchinson, or private conversations between Abberline and his superiors, or between Abberline and the coppers on the ground. How would Ben define such things that were never recorded, if not 'off the record'?

I fully accept that Abberline was initially of the view that Hutchinson was telling the truth, just as I accept that he was keeping an open mind on the matter*, but it does appear that this opinion was subsequently revised, and that other senior officials shared that view. They didn't agree on everything, or even most aspects of the case, but here was one detail upon which they appeared to be in collective agreement, as I outlined in my previous post…

*Given that he penned his report before any investigations into Hutchinson could commence, he had little choice, and he would certainly have exposed himself to criticism had he given a witness account an instant knee-jerk dismissal (however implausible it may, on the surface, have appeared).

Just a brief observation about the seemingly "discarded" nature of Hutchinson's account. The Star of 15th November reported that the account was "now discredited". What I've always found intriguing about this is the fact that the 15th November was the day after various press versions of Hutchinson's evidence had entered into public circulation. Did the police become concerned upon reading these that Hutchinson's press admissions had rather seriously compromised his initial police statement? If so, it could feasibly account for the subsequent lack of interest in Hutchinson's account. An inference based on facts, timing etc, but I feel a logical one.

Hi Ben,

A good couple of posts here.

I suspect that the bones of Hutch's account rang true for Abberline, possibly because of something that came out during the interrogation, some admission perhaps about his activities that would have made it unlikely for him to have come forward at all if he was making everything up. But when they started investigating his story, maybe some details checked out while others didn't (for example the apparent mistake he made over the pub names and locations on Commercial Street).

I'm not entirely convinced that the police had no hand in what the papers reported. But if they didn't, and were furious with Hutch for blabbing, they would have been well aware of how the press could turn black into white at the drop of a billycock, either accidentally or on purpose, and would therefore not have automatically blamed their star witness for any inconsistencies, nor assumed he must have been lying to them throughout. Witnesses can be notoriously stupid, inconsistent, money-grabbing or cocky, and still have witnessed something important.

What would have ended Hutch's fifteen minutes of fame would be evidence that he had indeed been in Romford, but had not returned until a day or two after the murder (leaving the court temporarily unattended perhaps?), rendering his account bogus, but giving him a cast iron alibi in the process. But then we'd need a reason for him to have put himself in the court to witness Mary and her fake Astrakhan Man going into her room at least an hour after Blotchy.

Enter Blotchy, who badly needed two people to stand in for him by the Monday: a man of roughly the same build as himself, to be Lewis's lurker, and a flashy Jew to be Mary's last punter: "Look George, I need a small favour..... ta George, you're a star."

Hutch could have drawn on a recent experience of watching over dealings in the court for his account, making it sound plausible enough to Abberline at first hearing.

Any fatal objections?

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

Just a few observations about the distinction between "off the record" and "on the record". Abberline would not have withheld any clandestine disclosures about Hutchinson's role in the Miller's Court saga if the report he penned was only for the consumption of his colleagues and superiors within the police force, as we know it was. If Hutchinson admitted, on the 12th November, to being a minder or mugger, Abberline would have said so in his internal, confidential police report. Absolulely 100%. Debate over with that one. Seriously. He had no earthly reason for withholding that detail from an internal police report, and a professional obligation to impart it.

they would have been well aware of how the press could turn black into white at the drop of a billycock, either accidentally or on purpose, and would therefore not have automatically blamed their star witness for any inconsistencies

Up to a point perhaps, but once that "point" is crossed, it becomes more or less impossible to chalk up glaring inconsistencies to mere journalistic lily-gilding and far easier to blame the original source; the witness whose account seemed dodgy enough to begin with. For example, the chances of a newsman inventing the whole "I told a policeman about it, but didn't go to the station" detail is slim to non-existent, same with a number of other disclosures that appeared in the press versions of his account ("I went up the court and heard no noise" (etc) being another).

Again, if the likes of Matthew Packer were being dismissed because of inconsistencies in their press and police versions, it seems likely that Hutchinson was dismissed for similar reasons. The only reason some people are demanding something "different" and "major" in Hutchinson's case is because they want to look for opportunites to distance him from the Miller's Court crime scene and so diminish his suspect status, but that doesn't make any rational sense, just as it doesn't make any rational sense for other GH-observers to be so adamently opposed to Hutch-as-killer on the one hand, but eager to endorse even more speculative scenarios on the other. Not saying you fit into either camp, but you may have observed both trends.

I see no problem with the concept of Hutch being a male 'presence' in or around the court, if the idea was merely to deter the killer from trying his luck there.

And a damned dine "deterring" job he did...and admitted to!

[DVV]

If Hutch wore a wideawake hat...

Hello Ben,
you seem absolutely correct. If Hutchinson was known to be a minder or an informer, Abberline would have mention it in his report (since he states: "H is at present in no regular employment").
It's also true that after some time, his testimony was no more considered as "important" , as already showed in previous posts (come-back of Blotchy Face, recalls of Schwarz and Lawende, etc). I'd like to point the contradiction of the adjectives "true" and "important" in Abberline's report, in the case of Hutchinson: 'cause indeed, if GH's testimony is "true", then GH is the most important witness of all, not only important. How many suspects discussed here could be dismissed, if so?
In any case, if Hutch has a chance to be this Wideawake Hat seen by Sarah Lewis, he can be reasonably considered a suspect in MK's murder.
On the other hand, if Sarah Lewis is a mere liar, iand this Wideawake Hat never existed, then nobody at all has seen Hutchinson on the spot, though he claimed to have stayed 45 minutes there.
Quite illogically, the police seems to have neglected both Lewis and Hutch, who soon disappear from the enquiry, unlike the sept. 30's witness.
As a coincidence, we may remind that Ada Wilson's offender wore a wideawake hat.
Thanks all, and sorry for broken english
DVV (aka Fu Manchu)

[Ben]

Agreed all round, DVV. Great post.

As a coincidence, we may remind that Ada Wilson's offender wore a wideawake hat.

Indeed, and to complicate matters further, he also had a "sunburnt complexion" which is reminiscent of Mrs. Cox's "blotchy-faced" suspect. The latter wore a "billycock" hat which is often interchangable with a wideawake.

Interestingly, a George Thomas Hutchinson (the man arrested for stealing a watch) had connections to an address at Cottage Grove, which was a stone's throw from the Wilson crime scene.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jon Guy]

Hi Ben and DVV

The similarities are striking, even given the number of men with sunburnt faces and ginger moustaches who must have been walking around the East End !! You`d think someone would have known him ?

Ada Wilson - 30 yrs 5`6 sunburnt face fair moustache

Mary Cox - 35 yrs 5`5 blotchy face carrotty moustache

[DVV]

Hello,
and thanks to revive this talk.
At least, you both show that Ada's case is not exclusively supported by Lawende's suspect.
As to Ada's address (given as "9 Maidman Street, Burdett Road, Mile End" by Sugden, and "19 Maidman Street, Bow" by Begg), I confess I am at a loss...
If there is, somewhere, a map includind the pre-Ripper murders sites locations, I'd be eager to have a look.
Anyway, even if we feel more comfortable to imagine JTR as a Spitalfields resident, why not a link in Mile End/Bow? Bury lived in Bow (which includes Mile End, or it's the contrary?), and that do not dismiss him as a serious suspect, as far as I know. So why Ada's misfortune should be dismissed because of the place it happened?
There may be something in Mile End/Bow. (If you allow me a wild speculation, JTR could hate, or focus on Lusk because he was a "neibourgh" , and that would explain the letter with kidney, and the bitter saucyness of the message)
Butd to come back to november 9, it seems that adding value to Ada's case can make Wideawake Hat and Hutchinson more suspect, as tend to indicate your two previous posts.

I have seen what a wideawake hat looks like (thanks to casebook, cause my english friends in Marseilles could not explain), but I'd like to know what kind of people would have worn that one, in London 1888. Not everybody, I guess. Was it for clerks, for labourers (I doubt)...for young men, or was it already old-fashion...?
Many thanks, and sorry for broken english...
DVV

[Jon Guy]

Hello,
and thanks to revive this talk.
At least, you both show that Ada's case is not exclusively supported by Lawende's suspect.
As to Ada's address (given as "9 Maidman Street, Burdett Road, Mile End" by Sugden, and "19 Maidman Street, Bow" by Begg), I confess I am at a loss...
If there is, somewhere, a map includind the pre-Ripper murders sites locations, I'd be eager to have a look.
Anyway, even if we feel more comfortable to imagine JTR as a Spitalfields resident, why not a link in Mile End/Bow? Bury lived in Bow (which includes Mile End, or it's the contrary?), and that do not dismiss him as a serious suspect, as far as I know. So why Ada's misfortune should be dismissed because of the place it happened?
There may be something in Mile End/Bow. (If you allow me a wild speculation, JTR could hate, or focus on Lusk because he was a "neibourgh" , and that would explain the letter with kidney, and the bitter saucyness of the message)
Butd to come back to november 9, it seems that adding value to Ada's case can make Wideawake Hat and Hutchinson more suspect, as tend to indicate your two previous posts.

I have seen what a wideawake hat looks like (thanks to casebook, cause my english friends in Marseilles could not explain), but I'd like to know what kind of people would have worn that one, in London 1888. Not everybody, I guess. Was it for clerks, for labourers (I doubt)...for young men, or was it already old-fashion...?
Many thanks, and sorry for broken english...
DVV

Hi DVV

There are some maps here on Casebook, have a look under "Victorian London" on the menu to the left.

We are getting a bit off thread here so I`ll be brief.

Have you read the account and description by Mrs Fidymont, who reported a man who came into her pub for some ale an hour after the Chapman murder ? Although, Abberline seemed to think this was Isenschmid, the Pork Butcher.
Salt`n`pepper trousers and all !!!

Also, with Ada`s story, like Kelly, we have a prostitute attacked with a knife in her room after midnight.

Incidentally, I think Burdett Rd was also where Emma Smith was hanging around when she was last seen by her friend, who was punched by someone around that time. Only a short walk from Spitalfields.