Why did he lied?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

"If he was nosey, why not have a look through the window?"

Well, it seems to me that should one emerge at that moment, it would be difficult to deny what you are about. Not so further up the court.

Cheers.
LC

Well then, Lynn, what is the use in just standing around like a spare bottle of milk?

All or nothing, surely?

[lynn cates]

Ah, youth!

Hello Mac. All or nothing? I'll have to think about that one. A young man like Hutchinson could be quite curious, yet not act on it.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. All or nothing? I'll have to think about that one. A young man like Hutchinson could be quite curious, yet not act on it.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

Yeah, true enough.

There's no accounting for taste.

Personally, I would have done all or nothing, but concede that others see it differently.

In my view, it doesn't quite add up. He's suspicious enough to stand watch for 45 minutes. Presumably, H was aware this was a client/prostitute transaction, which should have meant he was out in 10 minutes, which, in turn, should have increased H's suspicion. So, with a certain amount of suspicion he decides to stand watch; with his suspicion heightened he decides to walk away and leave them to it. Doesn't seem reasonable to me.

[Tom_Wescott]

The possible identification of Astrakhan Man

but if anyone is saying did this guy look like Druitt, then yes he does, he also looks like J.KELLY, a shorter version of Tumblety/ Prince Albert, but he's most like G.Chapman for sure.

If you mean the famous illustration of Astrakhan Man, I agree that it bears a strikingly eerie resemblance to George Chapman. However, I don’t believe that illustration was done with the assistance of Hutch at all, and in fact is likely an exaggeration to some extent to how the man really would have appeared.

Hello Richard.

"Instead of being so negative, we should do a turn about, and actually believe what he said, and ask what this would imply."

Excellent point.

Yes, it is an excellent point. And apparently the police thought so as well. What doesn’t appear to get discussed much with Hutch hounds is that Astrakhan Man might have in fact been identified by police in December of 1888 when they arrested Joseph Isaacs, who fit Hutch’s description. Hutch in fact might have pointed him out to them. We know that Isaacs was able to clear himself, and we know likewise that Hutch was subsequently dropped from all consideration as a witness of JTR, which is not the same as saying the police decided he was a liar. They may have merely concluded that the man he saw was not the killer of Kelly.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

transaction

Hello Mac. Thanks for that.

His behaviour is decidedly odd, but there are other explanations.

Not sure that GH thought it just a client transaction.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

A-MAn sought

Hello Tom. Thanks. Another good point.

I've seen scuttlebut in "The Echo" indicating that the Met was still looking for A-man as late as the 15th or 16th.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac. Thanks for that.

His behaviour is decidedly odd, but there are other explanations.

Not sure that GH thought it just a client transaction.

Cheers.
LC

I agree that there a few possibilities. I wouldn't say H's story/account is beyond belief.

I would be surprised, however, in the event H did not know Mary was a prostitute - considering they were friends.

[Lechmere]

Tom
The Lewis’s Wide-awake man doesn’t equal Hutch ‘discussion’ occurred in the midst of one of the other Hutch threads – I dread to think which one.

In brief:

I made the point that at the time and for a great many years thereafter, absolutely no one, including the police and the many organs of the press made the connection between the wide-awake man and Hutch.
I said that if it was so obvious that they were one and the same, then someone would have thought so then. Lewis after all was available to make a positive ID. Hutchinson was given considerable prominence for a while and his statements would have been under the microscope.

Of all the testimony heard at the inquest, Lewis’s was pretty much passed over as being a bit dull and lacking in interest.
This makes it somewhat unlikely that her testimony will have got on the old local grape vine and arrived in Hutch’s ears.
It is impossible that he could have sat in the inquest as it is known that the room was small and Abberline would have seen him – and don’t forget Abberline interviewed him later that day.
The last possibility is that Hutch was in the crowd and saw Lewis going into or out of Shoreditch Town Hall and assumed she was going to ‘finger him’. Bear in mind that their supposed encounter on Dorset Street several days before was exceptionally brief - a fleeting passing of two ships in the night - and she would almost certainly have been dressed differently at the inquest, it would seem unlikely that he would have recognised her.

The more likely and common place explanation is that Hutch went to work that day and turned up at Commercial Street Nick after work – it was 6 pm after all. He probably had an attack of conscience, thought that he might make a difference, wanted a bit of limelight or whatever.

There is more than a hint at the reason why wide-awake man didn’t equal Hutch in the extant record. Namely Lewis described her man as ‘not-tall but stout’ whereas Hutch was described as being of ‘military appearance’.
However you try and cut it, and when this was discussed inevitably some did try – these two admittedly skimpy descriptions are not exactly complementary.

It seems to me that this is one of those instances where something seems ‘obvious’ to people now, that went by on the nod at the time.
If there was a connection I am certain it would have been noticed. The fact that it was not suggests very strongly that they were very obviously different people. There must have been some obvious ‘thing’ that meant Hutch simply wasn’t wide-awake man.
This is similar to the long discussions relating to the locking mechanism to 13 Miller’s Court. This issue is the cause of regular debate nowadays with the implication that it has a major bearing on the case. It didn’t so much as merit a line of discussion at the time (I think) which tells me that the door opening mechanism was of no consequence to the conduct of the Kelly murder.
If there was some trick to it which would have allowed someone access then I am certain the matter would have been raised at the time.
I’ll give one more example – the graffiti. If it had been there for any length of time prior to the night of the ‘double event’, then I am sure a journalist would have found someone in the relevant stairwell who would have told them that they had seen it since lunchtime or whenever. My guess is that over 30 people will have lived up that stairwell.
That is not to say that some things were not missed at the time, and that the police made many mistakes. However they and the media were not total idiots.

Did witnesses fail to appear at inquests?
We know Robert Paul was going to, but the police had his address. He had failed to report to them so they raided his house and drag the poor fellow out of bed to make him turn up. Then he moaned that he had lost pay in consequence of this – as did other people who had been pressed into turning up. Being an inquest witness was not a popular activity for many.
Then there is the case of Packer – who went to Scotland Yard (not just Commercial Street Nick) to make a statement at 4 pm on 4th October, but the Stride inquest opened on 1st October. The Kelly inquest was deliberately kept brief. Hutchinson can hardly have anticipated this. The Stride inquest went on for days.

Talking of Stride, if Hutch was worried about being spotted by Lewis and this promoted his appearance at Commercial Street Nick, then why didn’t he appear after Schwartz supposedly spotted him in the form of the BS man? After all he knew Schwartz had seen him as he shouted at Schwartz...

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Lechmere, thank you for detailing your thoughts so thoroughly. I must say I've shared some of your doubts, but you hit upon a few other things I'd never thought of. My only question would be, if Hutch was where he said he was (outside Millers court), then why didn't Lewis see him as well, and why didn't HE see wideawake man? Is it perhaps a timing problem?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

Timings are often almost impossible to reconcile throughout this case without a shoehorn.
Hutchinson may not gave been there at all. Or on the previous day!
Or Lewis may well have been a little in front if him - she saw a similar couple to the A-man and Kelly before she went into Millers Court.
She says she saw someone outside Crossinghams - I would guess at any given time of day peoplewere hanging around outside Crossinghams.

[Malcolm X]

Tom
The Lewis’s Wide-awake man doesn’t equal Hutch ‘discussion’ occurred in the midst of one of the other Hutch threads – I dread to think which one.

In brief:

I made the point that at the time and for a great many years thereafter, absolutely no one, including the police and the many organs of the press made the connection between the wide-awake man and Hutch.
I said that if it was so obvious that they were one and the same, then someone would have thought so then. Lewis after all was available to make a positive ID. Hutchinson was given considerable prominence for a while and his statements would have been under the microscope.

Of all the testimony heard at the inquest, Lewis’s was pretty much passed over as being a bit dull and lacking in interest.
This makes it somewhat unlikely that her testimony will have got on the old local grape vine and arrived in Hutch’s ears.
It is impossible that he could have sat in the inquest as it is known that the room was small and Abberline would have seen him – and don’t forget Abberline interviewed him later that day.
The last possibility is that Hutch was in the crowd and saw Lewis going into or out of Shoreditch Town Hall and assumed she was going to ‘finger him’. Bear in mind that their supposed encounter on Dorset Street several days before was exceptionally brief - a fleeting passing of two ships in the night - and she would almost certainly have been dressed differently at the inquest, it would seem unlikely that he would have recognised her.

.
Talking of Stride, if Hutch was worried about being spotted by Lewis and this promoted his appearance at Commercial Street Nick, then why didn’t he appear after Schwartz supposedly spotted him in the form of the BS man? After all he knew Schwartz had seen him as he shouted at Schwartz...

i very much doubt that GH went to Abberline because he was worried about what she saw of him, in fact it's totally the opposite, he wants her to see him really well, he thus went to Abberline hoping that he was seen outside.

to find out what's going on at the inquest, as you say, behind closed doors, he only has to talk to one of the nosey residents in the crowd...or talk to the residents after they've left the inquest, ``here's a shilling love, what did you tell the coppers``... because GH didn't go strait to Abberline, he waited a few hours.

therefore at the very least, hoping that he might have been seen standing outside, or suspicious of it, Hutchinson must have looked similar to him... unfortunately there is no good description of either, in fact it's bloody dreadful, but it still must be within about 50 %

also, GH has to be careful of this BLOTCHY FACE, fly in the soup character, so i doubt that he looked like him.

as for BS this is quite simple, he aint JTR, he's sailor boy that said earlier on, ``you'd say anything except your prayers``. you dont think that JTR would behave like BS do you..... he was not even aware that Schwartz was behind him.

would you worry about any of these suspect descriptions if you were JTR ?...... definitely not, because these aren't even bad, they're absolutely useless descriptions...... you know that, we all know that, JTR knows that.

THEREFORE IT HAS TO BE THIS :-

GH went to the police because he wanted too, but he did not go to the police the next day, like a normal person DEFINITELY WOULD, especially if he was innocent, a concerned citizen and a supposed friend of MJK.

he went because he was either a total liar and after a reward etc....or he is JTR, i'm sorry to say this but logic tells me that there's no other reason why, but either of these will require him to do his homework and go to the inquest first.

if he's JTR why does he have to go to the inquest first, after all, he knows exactly who was around or not that night?..... this is very interesting, because according to my theory he was only seen by Lewis and this actually helps him.

he needs to be bloody sure that he didn't leave something behind in that room by mistake, that room is a hideous mess and it's dark too, he needs to know from the inquest that the police dont have something from the killer left behind in there, he's also after gossip, he needs to know how confident the police are, he needs to make sure that it is indeed safe to go to the police.

his description of LA DE DA is rediculous, if i was Abberline i would have said at the time, ``you're making this up as you go along``, but unfortunately we're missing so much..... so so so much !

Abberline was not suspicious of him at first.... at all, this is very odd, it tells me that GH looked and behaved nothing like a savage mutilator, not even close, mind you, nor did BUNDY, but it also tells me that GH did not look like a street thug either, because Abberline would have been suspicious of this too, because they would have been looking for someone like BS and maybe there was a policeman on duty there, or over the next 2 days, that might recognise him from the night of Stride's murder etc

``that guy you just interviewed, i recognise him, i saw him near Berner st the night of Stride's murder``

OH FOR GOD'S SAKE, I'M GETTING FED UP WITH THIS, DAMN IT, THIS IS FATAL

oh dear oh dear, i'm not too happy with JTR going to the police, because the next thing they would've done is to I.D parade him with regards to Eddowes, he is now in serious trouble.

it is therefore very risky for JTR to go to the police, unless he was 100% certain that no copper ever saw him at close range, whatever the case, you can see how risky it is.

if anybody else sees him it's ok, but not a copper and definitely not a copper if he ever decides to kill again..well, he definitely cant mutilate again that's for sure, because from now on, he can even be recognised by a journalist, let alone 30 coppers, plus half of the EAST END

going to the police screws him up, he can never kill again in this area, but it's also very dodgy for his past murders.

i'm not sure now, i'm going to have to do some serious thinking, JTR could only go to the police if he wasn't seen by a policeman at close range, because only he knows this, mind you, he might never have been

[Wickerman]

....1) He didn't wanted to say he was the last man who saw Kelly alive. Wanted to make sure police didn't blame him. Or he himself was the killer.
or maybe there WAS a man, and Hutchinson gave a false description. Why?:

What do you think?

Well actually there was another man. We've discussed this elsewhere, Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy both described a "well-dressed man" loitering around the Commercial St. & Dorset St. corner about the same time as Hutchinson said he saw Astrachan.
Lewis & Kennedy may have been the same woman, or maybe not. The man they saw 'may' have been the same man Hutchinson saw, but again, maybe not.
Opinions differ on these questions for a number of reasons.

Regards, Jon S.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Wick,

Good observation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Malcolm X]

Well actually there was another man. We've discussed this elsewhere, Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy both described a "well-dressed man" loitering around the Commercial St. & Dorset St. corner about the same time as Hutchinson said he saw Astrachan.
Lewis & Kennedy may have been the same woman, or maybe not. The man they saw 'may' have been the same man Hutchinson saw, but again, maybe not.
Opinions differ on these questions for a number of reasons.

Regards, Jon S.

this guy was seen after 3am, i'm pretty sure he was, so yet again GH was able to slot himself into a quiet period of time between 2 and 3am,

i very much doubt that MJK was still out on the streets searching for another customer at this very late hour.... 3am just seems far too late.

[Malcolm X]

but i'm not happy with GH going to the police as JTR.

1.....GH would have been seen at the police station and over the next 2 days by flipping loads of people, different police on duty etc.....he could quite easily be recognised.

i never gave this much thought before but i do now, this is a long month since Eddowes died, so he might be ok now.

being ``he looks like the bloke i saw`` isn't enough, but it still makes me worry