George William Topping Hutchinson Records

[Lechmere]

This is no 7 The Paragon overlooking Blackheath. It is the left hand part of the house and the colonnade. This is where Harriet Blackall met George Wratten while they were both in service, which set in train the series of events which led to George Hutchinson senior settling down with Emma Blackall and Toppy leaving for London.
This is still a very pleasant area of London.

However about 2 miles away is Deptford High Street. In 1861 Florence Birkett’s father Joseph lived at No 7 which is long gone but would have been in the middle of this store.
Florence Birkett went on to marry Toppy.
This is now a very run down part of London and has been for as long as I have know. However the High Street is marked on the Charles Booth map in red – well to do. The streets off it are however dark blue – the lowest class! Some things never change.

London was and is a city of dramatic contrasts.

[Lechmere]

This where Barbel Street used to be. It is now actually a service road behind St George‘s Roman Catholic Cathedral in Southwark, connecting Westminster Bridge Road to Lambeth Road. Before being named Barbel Street it was called Joiner Street
Toppy and Florence lived at number 10 in 1898.
Visually it reminds me very much of the service road that used to be Dorset Street.
To add to the connection, according to Charles Booth it was ‘the worst street about here’ and was coloured black on his maps accordingly. It was the worst street in a very bad part of Lambeth and Southwark. It is a myth that the East End was uniquely poor.
From Westminster Bridge Road

From Lambeth Road.

[Lechmere]

Tower Street in SE1 is now called Morley Street and there are no period buildings at all on it and the numbering for the houses that remain is strange. It is very non descript.
Toppy and Florence were living at no. 80 in 1901.
This was another very poor street when Toppy was here.
It is about a minute’s walk from Barbel Street.

[Malcolm X]

Two things: First, I couldn't disagree more with your conclusions that a normal, long life after a series of horrible murders doesn't hurt his candidacy. It most certainly does and it is this fact that keeps others from jumping in here and saying the same thing as you have.

Second, there was nothing out of the ordinary about a young, down on his luck man coming forward with information, embellished or not, in order to try and squeeze a few dollars from the officials. He seems to have done exactly that as well. No different from anyone with a little brass, a little streetsmarts, and no money. That is the simplest explanation by far and something that I'm sure he wouldn't have explained all of to his children later on had he embellished.

Mike

i never said that, i said that i'm also not happy with Toppy as JTR due to this, i have mentioned this doubt many times.

i'm saying that the GH i'm after is not Toppy, but another GH, finally i'm not convinced that the signatures match and neither is Ben

how long does it take to get used to the locality, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, plus 22 is not too young....come on get real here.

because this GH i'm after was almost definitely there, the crap he talks is unbelievable and totally anti-semetic as well, he looks as guilty as hell and for so many other reasons as well, what i'm saying is Toppy pretended to be this guy years later, long after the dust had settled.

nobody here to back me up ? well maybe he's been talked about too much recently and members are pissed off hearing about it.

you lot here are going to have to come up with some very convincing arguement to make me believe that someone called GH was not there, because he's stalked MJK that night perfectly, it is textbook from beginning to end, unfortunately GH made quite a few mistakes as well, that make him appear even more guilty.

But for GH to be JTR....... he is almost definitely not Toppy, and this is the only concession that i'll give to you. JTR must be another GH and i have always thought this

[The Good Michael]

i never said that, i said that i'm also not happy with Toppy as JTR due to this, i have mentioned this doubt many times.

i'm saying that the GH i'm after is not Toppy, but another GH, finally i'm not convinced that the signatures match and neither is Ben

how long does it take to get used to the locality, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, plus 22 is not too young....come on get real here.

because this GH i'm after was almost definitely there, the crap he talks is unbelievable and totally anti-semetic as well, he looks as guilty as hell and for so many other reasons as well, what i'm saying is Toppy pretended to be this guy years later, long after the dust had settled.

nobody here to back me up ? well maybe he's been talked about too much recently and members are pissed off hearing about it.

I never said he was too young, and the idea of Toppy impersonating another, though possible is far-fetched. As for the signatures, you need to have people who haven't written books on Hutchinson as suspect, or haven't been proclaiming his guilt for years look at the signatures. One of tghe most learned men on this site was also a Hutch backer until he analysed the signatures. Then he did a 180. Once again, a young man trying to make a buck by telling what he saw and maybe embellishing when it looked as if his story wasn't much, is the simplest answer here... far simpler than absolute destruction of a woman.

Mike

[Lechmere]

I said Toppy at 22 was probably too young to be murdering old prostitutes. Also the murders were spread over quite an area - a few square miles of packed streets that would take a while to get to know. They did not all happen between the Victoria Home and Dorset Street.

[Malcolm X]

I never said he was too young, and the idea of Toppy impersonating another, though possible is far-fetched. As for the signatures, you need to have people who haven't written books on Hutchinson as suspect, or haven't been proclaiming his guilt for years look at the signatures. One of tghe most learned men on this site was also a Hutch backer until he analysed the signatures. Then he did a 180. Once again, a young man trying to make a buck by telling what he saw and maybe embellishing when it looked as if his story wasn't much, is the simplest answer here... far simpler than absolute destruction of a woman.

Mike

to me the signatures are a bit of this and a bit of that, but i am always honest and i have to say that i'm not convinced either way.

i would be far happier that JTR was another GH, until then, i'm working on JTR maybe being Blotchy face, but this theory isn't nearly as strong as GH..... bloody hell, nothing is as strong as this anti-semetic pile of garbage that is so similar to Stride and the Graffito later on.

these 3 murders look like a Trilogy, but i could be missing something massive here, because i've detected something in the Graffito and i have to talk to Tom.

why does JTR know what we're thinking and why is he thinking like a few of us here, have you ever noticed that he seems to be killing to avoid detection by us lot, i first noticed this yesterday. ......maybe it's nothing

[Malcolm X]

I said Toppy at 22 was probably too young to be murdering old prostitutes. Also the murders were spread over quite an area - a few square miles of packed streets that would take a while to get to know. They did not all happen between the Victoria Home and Dorset Street.

this is not enough to rule out any visitor to London, i've only ever been to Winchester 3 times with my Art Market Stall and i'm already getting to know the street layout.

thus, JTR does not need to know this area well, he just needs to be street wise and to have a great understanding of human nature.

JTR can quite easily be a visiting Sailor, a travelling Salesman etc, he only needs to dress like Joe Average and to be roughly 5ft 8'' tall.

[Lechmere]

Toppy’s father George Hutchinson had a brother called John. In other words he was Toppy’s uncle.
The last time we saw him was in the 1841 census (see post 63, page 7 of this thread).
They were all living together in Moulsham High Street on the outskirts of Chelmsford in Essex.
John was a 20 year old painter, George was a 15 year old labourer, while their mother Hannah was a widow aged 45.
By 1851 the family had split up – George was a plumber aged 23. His mother lived close by but was listed as being 60 (see post 64, page 7).
People’s ages were a little ‘flexible’ in those days.
But what of John?
In 1851 he was living in Chelmsford High Street with his wife Sarah, four children and a servant. He was a 31 year old plumber, born in Chelmsford and he must have been doing well for himself.

In 1861 he is 41 year old and lives with his wife and eight children, still at Chelmsford High Street.
It is interesting to note that he describes himself as a ‘Master Plumber’, employing 1 man and 1 boy. The boy may be his eldest son, also called John, who is listed as a Journeyman Plumber, aged 18.

In 1871 they are living on Tindal Street (which runs parallel to the High Street) with his wife and just four children. John is listed simply as a plumber, aged 51.

By 1881 they were living at 10 Conduit Street (which is what Tindall Street was re-named for a short period).
John Hutchinson was now 61 and we learn that he was in fact born in Moulsham.
He was still a plumber and employed 1 man and 2 boys.
Two of his children are still living with him. Rather oddly, under occupation the daughter Alice is listed as a plumber’s daughter, William is listed as a plumber’s son. Clearly by this stage the whole family defined themselves via their father’s occupation.
One other interesting little fact is that John has a new partner. Presumably Sarah (who was from Witham in Essex) had died and was replaced by Elizabeth, who was 55 years old and born in Kirkcudbright in Scotland.

[Lechmere]

What does this illustrate?

Clearly both George and John Hutchinson did not go into plumbing immediately.
George was initially a labourer and John initially a painter. As we have seen, in later years John would seem to have self defined his family as being ‘plumbers’, yet at least up to the age of 21 he was a painter.
The slow start of the Hutchinson brothers in the plumbing trade was despite the fact that their father (also called John) was also a plumber (see George Hutchinson’s marriage certificate, post 65, page7).

Toppy listed himself as a plumber by the time of the 1891 census and by the 1930s would seem to have been a proud plumber (according to his son Reg). However the man who lived at the Victoria Home in 1888 said he worked as a groom or a labourer. Toppy would have been about 22 at that time. Did he just follow the pattern set by his father and uncle in not becoming a plumber straight after leaving his childhood behind?

Further evidence of this strong, late in the day family plumbing infatuation is given by looking at the records for the widowed Hannah Hutchinson, the mother of George and John.
Here is Hannah in 1861, aged 67 and working as a general shopkeeper in Moulsham.

But in 1871 she was living in Clapham Square in Chelmsford, aged 79 and is either listed as a widow of a plumber or the mother of a plumber (I’m unsure which). By now she was blind through age.

[Lechmere]

I noticed that mariab made her first ever visit to the LMA yesterday. It’s lucky she didn’t go today as the printers weren’t working (presuming she needed to print anything off).
Still I had a pencil and paper and managed to make a few useful enquiries while fuming about a waste of a day – and it was supposed to be late closing.
Then I had a brainwave – why not ‘check out’ these new leads at the Tower Hamlets Local History Library which luckily was open today and I made it 15 minutes before it closed!
Enough time to make some rapid checks on the electoral register.

I sussed out that the addresses I wanted to check would probably be in the same polling district and so they were – 45 Coborn Road (where the Jervis’s were living in 1912), 576 Mile End Road (which Toppy listed as his address when he married in 1898), and my new lead – Grove Road which meets Mile End Road and continues as Burdett Road down towards Limehouse. I had a connection for the Jervis’s in 1901 and Toppy in 1903.
All in Mile End Old Town, North East Ward.
As time was short for my search I started in 1901 - nothing, 1902 – nothing, 1903 – nothing, 1904 – nothing.

The Mile End Road address had no electors – I suspect that it had been demolished to make room for the adjacent Underground Station which opened in 1902. In fact I strongly suspect that it was boarded up in 1898 and Toppy used it as a bogus address. Or squatted.
I didn’t particularly expect to see the Jervises at Coborn Road as they weren’t listed there until 1912, but I did expect to find them at Grove Road.

To think, an earlier Jack some half a millennium before had led the peasants to Mile End in the cause of freedom, only for Toppy to not even bother to register to vote.
I have formed the distinct impression that Toppy was a bit of a fly-by-night. I don’t think he had much of a sense of civic responsibility. Today he wouldn’t pay his TV licence and would be moving address constantly. He married his wife when she was two months pregnant and lived in the very worst areas of London. Judging by his photograph he had a twinkle in the eye that no doubt got him through numerous scrapes, but I have the impression he was a bit of a waster.
His in-laws - the Jervises and Birketts - seem to have had a similarly relaxed attitude towards officialdom.

Anyway it was almost 5.00 pm and closing time when I checked 1905 and I could hardly believe it.
Here he was!
Toppy, aged about 39 with his wife and at least three kids by my estimation, a lodger living in two rooms. Hardly the aristocracy of the working class and a marked contrast to his uncle John. Uncle John had been a successful plumber.

And he was still there in 1906.

This may not seem like much of a discovery but it was to me.

[David Knott]

I have mentioned that Toppy was about 14 when his mother Jane died.
She was certainly dead by the time of the 1881 census.
We know the family were living in Eltham in 1881 and in Norwood which comes under Lambeth in 1871, but cannot be sure when they moved.
Jane was born in 1832.
It is likely that she died in the last quarter of 1880 in Lewisham. A Jane Hutchinson died then aged 47 which matches.

Another Jane Elizabeth Hutchinson died in Lambeth aged 46 in the 3rd quarter of 1880. This seems less likely as it would mean the date of birth would be 1834. Even allowing for inaccuracies in registering dates of birth and ages it seems more likely that the relevant Jane is the one who died in Lewisham.

Either way it would seem that Jane Hutchinson died in 1880.

Lechmere,

I think the Lewisham Jane is correct, just looking back through my old notes and correspondence, evidently his mother died in 1880 aged 47 after 7 years partial paralysis.

David

[David Knott]

As I have posted previously, when I contacted the family a few years back, the biographical details provided allayed any doubts I had regarding the likelihood of Toppy having been in the East End in 1888, also of him not having been a plumber at that time.

The negative aspect was that nobody in the family (Reg included it was inferred) seemed to know anything about the connection with the witness GH prior to 'The Ripper and The Royals'.

However ... Reg had a younger brother (still alive the last I knew) and his daughter-in-law did post on here to say that this brother had also told the story.

If that is the case, then I will happily believe that Toppy was the witness.

He wasn't Jack the Ripper though. I'd put my mortgage on it!

[Lechmere]

If Reg had a younger brother then he must be ancient. Toppy had Reg late in life as it was.
The family must have a good memory – few would know anything that far back unless there was a big something to rememeber

I think Toppy led a somewhat disorganised life until he settled down properly around 1910 – by which time he was in his mid 40s. I suspect he was chasing his youth. Reg also looks like that type judging by his photograph.
I would think that for the Ripper to stop and continue living a ‘normal’ life then he would have to be a very controlled and precise type of person.
That is on top of the other reasons I have given for Toppy not being the Ripper.

[Malcolm X]

Toppy either lied about everything to the police...thus wasn't there, or the Kelly eye witness is not Toppy, we need to get these signatures checked yet again, but this time by about 5 different professionals.

Toppy could also be pretending to be the Kelly eyewitness years later, plus; are you sure it's not his son that was lieing, his son said ``my father always maintained that he was outside Kellys``..... now is this true, or is the son the person that's lieing.

whatever, Toppy does not fit the profile of a savage mutilator, he is not JTR, he is therefore lieing about something..... but what exactly!!!!!!!