George William Topping Hutchinson Records

[Sally]

Lechmere

It wasn't a common lodging house in fact. Do your homework (yawn). And maybe even do your homework on Warren Street before you start with the confident pronouncing of 'facts'.

What is this thread about, exactly? So far we've seen a veritable plethora of reproduced images (and I do hope you have COPYRIGHT permission to reproduce them in full, Lechmere) which are all very interesting and all - but how exactly do they add to the debate on the identity of the witness George Hutchinson? Unless of course your'e one of those people who have already decided.

Then it becomes a matter of faith, eh?

Carry on...

[Stephen Thomas]

Lechmere

It wasn't a common lodging house in fact. Do your homework (yawn). And maybe even do your homework on Warren Street before you start with the confident pronouncing of 'facts'.

What is this thread about, exactly? So far we've seen a veritable plethora of reproduced images (and I do hope you have COPYRIGHT permission to reproduce them in full, Lechmere) which are all very interesting and all - but how exactly do they add to the debate on the identity of the witness George Hutchinson? Unless of course your'e one of those people who have already decided.

Then it becomes a matter of faith, eh?

Carry on...

Blimey, wots goin on ere then?

[Lechmere]

Sally has been in a mood with me ever since I went to the LSE Library and looked at the Booth papers relating to the Victoria Home and blabbed on here about what they contained.
She keeps misunderstanding the nature of Copyright law and what is or isn't a lodging house - and when the term 'common' can or can't be applied to the same.
But luckily she has given me permission to carry on.

[Lechmere]

This is my favourite document.
It is the marriage certificate of Toppy’s father in-law.
The significance of tracing Toppy’s in-laws is that it will give some indication of what connections Toppy had with the East End. He must have met and courted his wife somewhere. And of course they ended up living in Bethnal Green.

The in-laws marriage took place in Holy Trinity Church, Morgan Street. This is the same church (which is unused but still standing) where Toppy got married to their daughter in 1898 (see page 2, post 20) and where Toppy’s first son and wife were baptised in 1899 (see page 3, post 21).

The marriage was between William Jervis and Clara Birkess.
They lived at 45 Coborn Road (firmly in what anyone would call Bow nowadays) which is still a very pleasant street of Georgian properties with two nice pubs – the Coborn Arms and the Morgan Arms (on the corner of Morgan Street). I think the original house is still there.

The first clue as to how this family may be able to be traced is provided by William Jervis’s father’s name and profession – he was also called William Jervis and was a deceased Master Mariner.
William Jervis junior is listed as a Commercial Traveller (on his daughter’s marriage certificate he is listed as a Clerk and on his daughter’s baptismal record he was a Book Keeper).

His wife’s father was called George Davis (was innocent?) and he was a deceased Ship Builder. His wife was a widow, hence her surname was Birkess rather than Davis.

Now we get to the strange bit.
William Jervis was 53.
Clara Birkess was 49.
The marriage took place on 18th February 1912.

That is almost 14 years after his daughter got married.
Mr and Mrs Jervis witnessed that marriage certificate as Mr and Mrs Jervis not as Mr Jervis and Ms Birkess.
Check the signatures (see page 2, post 20) with those on this marriage certificate.
Clara Birkess signs as Clara Jervis!
Their daughter Florence Beatrice was baptised at the age of 20 at Holy Trinity Church on the same day as Florence’s eldest son (see page 3, post 21).
On this baptismal record Clara is definitely listed as Florence’s mother.

This means that Toppy’s wife’s parents were not married when she was born and actually only got married late in life.
The Jervis family seem to have been late developers because Florence herself only got baptised at the age of 20.
Also remember that Toppy and Florence’s eldest son was born just seven months after they got married.
They seem to have had a relaxed attitude towards convention.

Notwithstanding Clara being listed as her mother on the baptismal record, there is a chance that Clara was actually William Jervis’s second wife.
A couple of different potential Jarvis or Jervis families have previously been identified but I am dubious as to whether either are the right one.

I think Florence witnessed her parent’s marriage. Someone called Hutchinson certainly did – and the initial looks like F.

[Malcolm X]

Not really. An Electoral Register wasn't compiled for 1888 and there is no census that year - so we have to fill in the blanks.

hi and thanks

no this isn't good enough, we must never fill in the blanks

because this Toppy might not have stayed at the Victoria homes, we need to trace the records of who was staying there in november 1888 and working back from there....probably impossible now!

all your work is great but means little, because we already know that Toppy was lurking around in this neighbourhood at the time, the only thing that we need to know is if this Toppy is the actual witness and to do this we need to know if he stayed at the Victoria homes

alternatively, if you find out that say this Toppy was staying in Romford in november 1888, then bang, he aint the Kelly witness, but tracing where he was this acurately will be impossible.

but i appreciate how hard this is.

[Debra A]

Good work Lechmere!
I think you may have solved the mystery of why there don't appear to be records for Florence Jervis. She was born Florence Birkett in Poplar in 1879?

[Lechmere]

Unfortunately they are no records to prove anything. That is the nature of it. I have a few more leads to check up on - one very good one pointing to Spitalfields at the right time, but even if I can prove that connection it will still mean we are left with conjecture.
That is what we have for everything to do with this case I am afraid. Put what facts are available together and try and join up the issuing parts to make as convincing a case as possible. Or alternatively disprove a case.
Of the records I have at the moment the only one I am sure about (including those of Toppy’s sister
Emily Jane – who is said to have married James Knott) is this.
It is for William Jervis, the father of William Jervis and the grandfather of Toppy’s wife Florence
It is from the 1891 census. He was a 87 year old widowed Navy Pensioner born in Stepney. He lived at 56 Heath Street (now confusingly called Head Street) which is off Commercial Road in Mile End Old Town, South ward, in the Ecclesiastical Parish of St Dunstan’s.

[Lechmere]

"She was born Florence Birkett in Poplar in 1879?"

Was there such a person?

[Debra A]

Yes, I definitely think you have cracked it.

Clara Davis, 17, spinster, father George Davis , Caulker, married Joseph Birkett on March 2nd 1879 at Allhallows Church Bromley.
Joseph, an oilman, was a widower (the 1881 census shows the family with a son older than Florence who was probably a child of this first marriage)

In 1881 the Birkett family were living at 121 St Leonards Rd Bromley.
In 1891 the family were living at 5, Maria Terrace, Mile End Old Town.
There's a Florence Birkett b c 1879 in both entries, along with Joseph, an oilman, and Clara his wife.

[Malcolm X]

oh yes i know what you're saying, dont worry about that.

i have 3 different theories about toppy/kelly and each one makes sense and even the ones that dont.. do !

i find it virtually impossible to rule out anything

[Lechmere]

Debra
That's excellent.
That means she wasn’t a Jervis at all!
I’m glad I didn’t spend too much time on the Jervis dead end.
Maria Terrace is near Stepney Green and I think it is intact!
More fresh leads to follow up! !

[Lechmere]

At the time of the 1871 census the Hutchinsons were living at no 5 Champneys Terrace, in the parish of St Luke’s in Norwood.
The household consisted of George and Jane Hutchinson and their children, George (Toppy) and Jane Emily.
Remember that in 1861 they had been living in Hornchurch in Essex.
However I have unearthed a document that shows that they must have been living at 5 Champneys Terrace at least in August 1870.
It is the marriage certificate of Jane’s kid brother, Albert Topping.
He married Mary Anne Greenaway at St Luke’s Church on 14th August 1870.
He must have moved down to London from Cambridge and stayed with his sister. It shows that the Topping family stayed in contact with each other.
This is actually an interesting ‘link’ document as will become clear.

[Lechmere]

Before I get to some more interesting connections I will tidy up one loose end.
In 1881 the Hutchinson family was living together in Eltham, and the mother Jane (Topping) had died.
By 1891, both children (George ‘Toppy’ and Emily Jane) had left home but George Senior had a new partner called Emma and started a new family in Lee.
We don’t know when George ‘Toppy’ left home or when George Senior met his new partner.
Also his daughter moved to Lee.
She got married in the second quarter of 1886 to James Knott. Below is the record of her marriage which took place in Lewisham. Lee comes under Lewisham so the most likely explanation is that George Senior moved to Lee before this date. Marriages usually take place in the area where the bride resides.

I have been unable to find the ‘other half’ of the record or the actual certificate which made me hesitate to accept that this was the right record – partly because she has transposed her name from Jane Emily to Emily Jane. However besides that everything matches and does for future references.
The actual marriage certificate might clear up where the Hutchinsons were living in 1886.
Someone else has researched the connection and obtained this information:

Emily Jane HUTCHINSON
Born: 26 Apr 1861, Hornchurch, Essex
Marriage: James KNOTT on 4 Apr 1886 in Lewisham, Kent
Died: 10 Nov 1932, Hadleigh, Essex aged 71
Buried: 15 Nov 1932, Hadleigh Churchyard, Hadleigh, Essex
Census, 1911, Hill House, Basildon, Essex
Emily married James KNOTT, son of Henry KNOTT and Sussanah BURVILL, on 4 Apr 1886 in Lewisham, Kent. (James KNOTT was born on 25 Nov 1862 in Crayford, Kent, died on 11 Mar 1934 in Hadleigh, Essex and was buried in Family Grave, Hadleigh Churchyard, Hadleigh, Essex.)

By 1891 the new Knott family was living in Lee, in the parish of St Mildred’s which was in the Parliamentary borough of Lewisham. It consisted of:
James Knott, aged 28, a foreman from Kent
Emily J Knott aged 29, from Essex
And two daughters, Gertrude aged 4 and Lillian aged 2, both from Kent.
The actual address was 59 Summerfield Street.
Summerfield Street is still there – a mostly intact road of humble terraced houses that I would guess are from the right period. This is about a mile away from where her father George was living in 1891 – in Lenham Road.

[Lechmere]

The significance of where the Hutchinsons were living in 1886 has a potential bearing on when Toppy moved out and up to London. It seems likely that George senior meeting his new partner was the catalyst for the family moving from Eltham to Lee.
In 1901 the Knotts were still at 59 Summerfield Street in Lee with more children (Emily Jane is mistakenly listed as born in Lee - in fact all the family is listed as born in Lee, when her husnabd was born in Crayford).
Emily Jane (Toppy’s sister) died in 1932 aged 71 - by which time the family had moved to Essex, but that isn't relevant to this story.

[Lechmere]

Toppy’s father George died aged 68 in 1895, still in Lewisham – before his son had married. Were they estranged? That was about when Toppy was supposed to have met his future wife, in a Music Hall so the family story went I believe.