Hutchinson, George- YOUR MEMORY TEST

[Sally]

Think that's misleading Fish (not saying you are being misleading, I hasten to add)

Degrees, you see. You may not be able to recount everything you did yesterday minute by minute with exactitude; but are you saying you wouldn't be able to provide an accurate, fairly detailed account of what you did in the morning, afternoon and evening?

I would. I would argue that most people could.

[Phil H]

Sally

I think one of the reasons some of us could reconstruct from memory what happened over the past few days is routine. That may not work for everyone - but know my memory. recollection of facts etc is heavily based on a mental "pigeon-hole" system.

I can say I travelled to work by bus (I do that every day), but I might have trouble recalling whether I had a longer/shorter wait than usual at the stop on a particular day. I usually stop off for a coffee mid-way to work, but I would not guarantee i could say which of the Costa Coffee team served me on Monday? (It would be a guess).

I am unsure whether someone with a less structured life would be helped or hindered by the fact that each day was different?

Phil

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Degrees, you see."

Yes. Degrees. That is what it is all about.

"You may not be able to recount everything you did yesterday minute by minute with exactitude ..."

Exactly - some things will stick, others wonīt. And predicting which will do which is not an easy task.

" ...but are you saying you wouldn't be able to provide an accurate, fairly detailed account of what you did in the morning, afternoon and evening?"

Not when it comes to yesterday, no. I can tell most of what I did - but I cannot be all that detailed always. I donīt remember exactly what I had for breakfast, for instance. Sandwiches, I guess, it is almost always the case with me, but what I had on them...? Nope. But I do know that I got up early and woke my kids after some time, then taking off for job. I went to have my hair cut at 16.30, and from there I went to a student party. After that, I went home, and went to bed at around midnight.
I can vividly remember what I ate at the party (yummie!), and I can tell what people I met and talked to, and about what we talked. Small bits will be lost, though.

But when I move another day back in time, it becomes a lot more sketchy. And moving two, three, four days back, I am having serious trouble remembering and getting things right.

Thats how I work. And as you correctly state, itīs all about degrees; others will work differently. Some will remember things easily, some will drop very much. And none of us can say anything at all about the sequential memory capacity of George Hutchinson. The case remains open, thus, and the possibilities too.

The best,
Fisherman

[Hatchett]

Hello Fish and all,

Memory is all to do with points of recall, like sign posts on a long road. There were definate signposts on Hutchinsons part of that particular road. The brutal murder of a friend, the Lord Mayor's Show, etc.

Another point to remember is that he himself went to the Police. In order to do that he must have believed himself that he could remember everything.

Your argument is only valid if Hutchinson himself said that he couldnt remember. In fact he never said such a thing.

He gave a police statement of things that he could remember. Surelly, he should have known.

Best wishes.

[Phil H]

He gave a police statement of things that he could remember.

Or made up!!

[Fisherman]

Hatchett:

"Your argument is only valid if Hutchinson himself said that he couldnt remember."

This is plain silly, Iīm afraid. Of course Hutchinson did not say that he was out on the dates. How many people who have been out on dates have you met, that have confidently stated that they were out on the dates? Sort of "I am going to meet my mum tomorrow, but I really wonīt do it, since I am out on the dates. To tell you the truth, it is the day AFTER tomorrow". How common is that, Hatchett?

This is not how it works, is it? People who are wrong on the dates actually BELIEVE that they are right.

In my line of work, many, many people call me and make inquiries about newspaper articles we have had in the paper. Some of them say "It was Wednesday last", and I look at that date, only to find that it was Tuesday. It is a very, very, very, very easy mistake to make and a very, very, very, very common one too. But often enough, the ones who call tell me "No, that canīt be right, Iīm sure it was on Wednesday"! They are that certain of something I can easily prove wrong!

My argument is perfectly valid if Hutchinson went to the police BELIEVING that he had seen Kelly on Friday morning, whereas in reality, it was Thursday morning. THAT is when my argument applies, and NOT only if Hutchinson himself was aware that he was out on the dates.

Geez - how HARD can it be?

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Phil

Hi Phil

I think one of the reasons some of us could reconstruct from memory what happened over the past few days is routine. That may not work for everyone - but know my memory. recollection of facts etc is heavily based on a mental "pigeon-hole" system.

I agree that routine - to an extent - can help to reconstruct memory, yes - I think that's obvious. But I think it only becomes necessary to rely on the constants in life for recall if you don't recall spontaneously.

I can say I travelled to work by bus (I do that every day), but I might have trouble recalling whether I had a longer/shorter wait than usual at the stop on a particular day. I usually stop off for a coffee mid-way to work, but I would not guarantee i could say which of the Costa Coffee team served me on Monday? (It would be a guess).

If you have very repetitive routines, I would expect that they could actually hinder recall rather than aid it in some instances. If you stop off for coffee on the way to work every day, how do you distinguish one coffee-stopping event from another? It would be useless as an aid to memory because of that. Which leads me on to your next point.

I am unsure whether someone with a less structured life would be helped or hindered by the fact that each day was different?

I have a 'less structured' life. I work around the country and am frequently away from home. I don't think it makes my memory better or worse. I don't have a diary. I do forget what has happened in detail after about 10 days, I'd say. Perhaps that's normal?

On weeks when I am 'in office' (and not in some random hotel, like I am now) I have to say I find the days tend to merge into each other.

I think a life when each day was similar - even if that similarity involved trying for a day's work; queueing up outside the workhouse; trying to get your doss money together - would be harder to recall in detail for the reasons stated above.

But that only means that an extraordinary event would have been etched in the memory in really big letters. Hutchinson, if you believe him, had several 'non-routine' events to fix his memory. It was only three days, not three years.

Cheers Phil
Phil[/QUOTE]

[Hatchett]

Hello Fish,

In your line of work that maybe so. But there is a fundemental difference in what we are talking about here which you seem to always ignore.

This wasnt a case where someone was appraoched and interviewed. This was a case where a man went to the Police and told his story about things that he was sure of. If he wasnt sure he wouldnt have gone. You have also consider the risks he was taking in putting himself into the ring of fire. He then made a detailed police statement that he signed.

Your line of work is irrelvent.

Best wishes.

[Versa]

How many people who have been out on dates have you met, that have confidently stated that they were out on the dates? Sort of "I am going to meet my mum tomorrow, but I really wonīt do it, since I am out on the dates. To tell you the truth, it is the day AFTER tomorrow".

Personally I think that's a poor comparison, this man (Hutch) went to the police with the sole intention of giving a statement... Given the details in his statement he must of spent some time reconstructing the 2 days events and getting them right to such a degree that he felt confident in going to the police and someone must of brought the subject up and somehow worked backwards with him to prove him wrong, at which point it would of been obvious to him that he had the wrong dates too.

He didn't just 'have a chat with someone' where he was specifically recalling a series of events.

[babybird67]

Personally I think that's a poor comparison, this man (Hutch) went to the police with the sole intention of giving a statement... Given the details in his statement he must of spent some time reconstructing the 2 days events and getting them right to such a degree that he felt confident in going to the police.

He didn't just 'have a chat with someone' where he was specifically recalling a series of events.

What's more, in his versions of the events, he specified not only the date he saw Mary, but the day of the week. Not something somebody does if they are at all confused about the timing of something.

[SarahLee]

My 2p for what it's worth . . . yes, there were several non-routine events that would have fixed that particular evening (early morning) in Hutchinson's mind, but that's by no means proof that there couldn't be a mix-up with the days of other fairly routine occurrences that happened around them.

And as far as I can ascertain, we don't know whether his walking that particular area at around that time in the morning was a regular routine . . . nor do we know how frequently he may have come across an acquaintance or even specifically encountered Mary if it was a regular stomping ground. My point being that it may not have been an exceptional enough happening to really cement itself in his mind for that particular time.

To put it into perspective, my very own memory test . . .

Every night I walk the dog at around the same time and I occasionally bump into a neighbour.
Now I know that last Monday I had a chat with Mike from next door. I know that it was Monday because Monday is "bin day" and he was bringing his Wheelie Bin in when I saw him.
Last Thursday I know that I had a lot of work to do in the evening, so that was the night that I took the dog for a run on the green instead of our usual long walk and I bumped into Emma and her kids playing down there.

However, one night this week I bumped into Kate who lives opposite. She was packing some boxes in her garage. The event sticks vividly in my mind because we had a long conversation - her and her husband are going through a messy divorce and she's been trying to sell the house. I can recall most of our conversation word for word because she was very emotional. I can even give a detailed description of what she was wearing. I remember thinking that her clothes looked loose as if she'd lost weight and thought that the stress must be getting to her.

Despite all of that, I'm struggling to recall whether that was Monday night or Tuesday night.

I have specific non-routine reference points for both evenings. Monday was my cousin's birthday so I had a long phone call with her. Tuesday we ate take-out, our regular Chinese doesn't open on a Tuesday so we had to order from a different place . . . but since I don't particularly connect either of these events with talking to Kate they don't help me.

Now hypothetically, if last night or even today I heard about Kate disappearing or something else awful happening to her initially I'd be really hard pressed to recall when the last time I saw her actually was. However, if it was that important, after dwelling on it and racking my brain I could probably come up with reasons to convince myself that it was one day or the other. Would I be correct? I honestly don't know, but the way the mind works once I'd worked it through I'd probably believe that I was right.

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"that only means that an extraordinary event would have been etched in the memory in really big letters. "

An extraordinary event as such is certainly easier to remember than the ordinary day, no doubt about it. But do we always take notice of the day that event happens?

If we, say, crash with a car, we will certainly remember that we have done so. But how many people register what day it happened?

Looking at it the other way around, is the chance bigger that we recall what we had for lunch on the day we crashed the car than it is on any other day? I am not sure of that in any way. In fact, I think that the impact on our minds of the crash itself may to some extent block out the more everyday features of such a day.

The bottom line is that I realize that we remember extraordinary events as such - but that does not mean that we necessarily keep track of what exact day they happened or what happened in relatively close time relation to it.

Hatchett:

"there is a fundemental difference in what we are talking about here which you seem to always ignore."

I do?

"This was a case where a man went to the Police and told his story about things that he was sure of."

Well, if we accept that he was truthful, then yes - you are absolutely correct.

"If he wasnt sure he wouldnt have gone."

I think you are right here too. I think he FELT sure that he had witnessed this on Friday morning, and that was what made him go to the police. If he had wawered, thinking "or was it Thursday?", he would perhaps have been less inclined to go. So obviously, he FELT sure about it!
And that, Hatchett, is where my working experiences DO apply - for they show us very clearly that people may feel absolutely sure that they have the correct date - but this is not always the case! Those who call me up and say "That article was in the paper last Wednesday" are SURE that they are right. They are so sure of it that they even doubt and question me when I tell them, after having consulted our archive, that it was on Tuesday.
Another magnitude, yes, but the exact same thing!

"You have also consider the risks he was taking in putting himself into the ring of fire."

Honest people invariably, more or less, go to the police with testimony like this. They do not consider themselves potential suspects - they KNOW that they are blameless. The idea of getting blamed does not occur to them, normally.

"Your line of work is irrelvent."

Im afraid not, Hatchett. Your claim that it is bears that hallmark itself, though.

Versa:

"... someone must (have) brought the subject up and somehow worked backwards with him to prove him wrong."

Yes. And? Is that not EXACTLY what we see evidenced in the Star and the Echo - the police DID talk to Hutchinson, and DID satisfy themselves that he was out on the dates! Thatīs why his story was discredited! And thatīs why the man himself was NOT - as witnessed about by Dew.

"...at which point it would of been obvious to him that he had the wrong dates too."

I donīt think it ever DID become obvious to Hutchinson. I think he remained steadfast in his conviction, just like Maxwell did, in spite of HER also being obviously wrong - just like Dew says. And the police would not have wasted precious time quibbling with Hutchinson over it - what did they have to gain? If they were convinced, then they were convinced, and letīs get on with it!

Sarah Lee:

"there were several non-routine events that would have fixed that particular evening (early morning) in Hutchinson's mind, but that's by no means proof that there couldn't be a mix-up with the days of other fairly routine occurrences that happened around them."

EXACTLY so - the two sets of events are not connected as such, and the more trivial stuff will easily get mixed up with the trivial stuff of all them other days!

"... if it was that important, after dwelling on it and racking my brain I could probably come up with reasons to convince myself that it was one day or the other. Would I be correct? I honestly don't know, but the way the mind works once I'd worked it through I'd probably believe that I was right."

Amen and Hallelujah, Sarah! - that is my take on it too. And maybe it applied to Hutchinsons ways and maybe it didnīt - but the possibility that it did is certainly there!

All the best,
Fisherman

[SarahLee]

I think you are right here too. I think he FELT sure that he had witnessed this on Friday morning, and that was what made him go to the police. If he had wawered, thinking "or was it Thursday?", he would perhaps have been less inclined to go. So obviously, he FELT sure about it!

And I think I just proved your point . . .

Now I know that last Monday I had a chat with Mike from next door. I know that it was Monday because Monday is "bin day" and he was bringing his Wheelie Bin in when I saw him.

It's just occurred to me that last week was a Bank Holiday, so the rubbish collection was actually a day later on Tuesday.
If I'd suspected Mike of doing something nefarious I would have had no hesitation in giving a statement to the police, secure in my "knowledge" that it was Monday evening that I'd witnessed his unusual behaviour. And if the day of bin collection wasn't so easily proven, I'd have been completely confident in my recollection!!!

[Sally]

An extraordinary event as such is certainly easier to remember than the ordinary day, no doubt about it. But do we always take notice of the day that event happens?

If we, say, crash with a car, we will certainly remember that we have done so. But how many people register what day it happened?

Most people? Seriously, I think most people would remember. It's not the sort of thing you forget, is it?

Well, maybe after several years you might forget which day of the week it was. I was in a car crash when I was in my early 20's. It wasn't serious - though it could have been - car was a write off. I remember the circumstances very well. I remember why I was in the car, the context, who I was with, the colour of the van that hit us, having to be cut out by the firemen, losing my earrings in the hospital, and so on - I can even remember what they looked like and how long I'd had them.

I actually don't remember the day of the week, now. It was midweek - if I had to guess I'd say it was a Tuesday - and that's the best I can do.

But it was over a decade ago.

If it had happened three days, weeks, months, or possibly even years ago I think I would have remembered.

I only have my own experience and what people have told me to go on, but that's how it seems to me.

[Fisherman]

Sally:

"Seriously, I think most people would remember. It's not the sort of thing you forget, is it? "

The car crash - no. The date - quite possibly. The implications of a car crash are not "Wow, to think this happened on a Thursday!", they are "Good grief, Iīm scared!", "Damn it, there goes a thousand pounds!" and such things.

You will vividly remember the crash because of itīs significance, but the significance does not lie in which day of the week it happened.

If you agree with this, then that will be a very significant thing. But will that significance manifest itself in your remembering that we actually agreed on something - or in your recalling that it happened on a Friday? And will you remember what you have for lunch today more accurately because of our agreement? I think not. You may disagree, though, and casually forget that you did so on a Friday ...

The best,
Fisherman