The Red Handkerchief...

[Garry Wroe]

Indeed, Garry. Ah - if only Sarah Lewis had been as observant as Hutchinson allegedly was on that night it'd be case closed and Isaacs down in history as the last-person-to-see-Kelly-alive-but-not-the-murderer-of-course [because that was Druitt, naturally]; but as it is, she's just another pawn on the Dorset Street chessboard for Team Exonerate.

Druitt?

Druitt!!??

Tell me you're joking, Sally.

[Ben]

Anyway, keep up the good work. Common sense will prevail in the end.

Thanks for the kind words, Garry - let's hope so!

Druitt?

Druitt!!??

Oh, haven't you heard? Druitt carried a black bag with him, and accosted several women in the area - star witness Kennedy among them. Yes, he was hovering in the area, biding his time in anticipation of Isaacs leaving, which the latter did at 3.00am, securing a cast-iron alibi in the process. Then Druitt-the-Ripper seized his moment...

Just ask Jon, he'll tell you.

[Wickerman]

So, once again, before you start criticising others for presenting theory as fact, you might consider abstaining from it yourself - otherwise you're likely to be accused of hypocrisy.

Talking about hypocrisy, when you do decide to "question everything", you will remember to let me know.
I'd hate to miss it...

[martin wilson]

And yet the red handkerchief is extraneous detail that offers no assistance in identifying the man. So why did Hutchison feel the need to include it? So far so good, he describes the proposition, relevant and necessary, then out of his imagination creates the red handkerchief? Why?
I've often wondered if money in handkerchiefs was a way of passing it so that a policeman or skulking mugger couldn't see it. Iirc Polly Nicholls had a clean white handkerchief found on her, distinct from the grubby rags she otherwise owned.
This theory suggests Astrakhan man was an experienced punter, doesn't prove he murdered MJK but imho lends more credibility to Hutchison's statement.
All the best.

[Sally]

Hi Martin,

Handkerchiefs were used by prostitutes at that time as a contraceptive device. The inference in Hutchinson's account would have been clear to his contemporaries.

The inclusion of the handkerchief in Hutchinson's tale is thus not out of place. Quite apart from just how he managed to even see it in the circumstances that he describes; a better question might be: Why Red?

Most Men's handkerchiefs were white. Now there's a curious thing.

[Garry Wroe]

Oh, haven't you heard? Druitt carried a black bag with him, and accosted several women in the area - star witness Kennedy among them. Yes, he was hovering in the area, biding his time in anticipation of Isaacs leaving, which the latter did at 3.00am, securing a cast-iron alibi in the process. Then Druitt-the-Ripper seized his moment...

No, I've just pinched myself and this really isn't a dream ...

Druitt and Isaacs???

Please call for help, Ben. I'm seeing images of David Icke and an army of Lizard Men ...

Too late.

[Abby Normal]

And yet the red handkerchief is extraneous detail that offers no assistance in identifying the man. So why did Hutchison feel the need to include it? So far so good, he describes the proposition, relevant and necessary, then out of his imagination creates the red handkerchief? Why?
I've often wondered if money in handkerchiefs was a way of passing it so that a policeman or skulking mugger couldn't see it. Iirc Polly Nicholls had a clean white handkerchief found on her, distinct from the grubby rags she otherwise owned.
This theory suggests Astrakhan man was an experienced punter, doesn't prove he murdered MJK but imho lends more credibility to Hutchison's statement.
All the best.

Hi Martin
The main witness to the previous crime in the series, Lawende, describes a suspect seen with Eddowes who was wearing a red hankercheif.

I think hutch, if lying for just attention, read this in the papers, and used it to make his suspect seem more suspicious. Many of his details in the story, indeed even his specific wording, seem to be gleaned directly from the papers.

If he was lying because he was the killer, then he was the man wearing the red hankercheif seen with Eddowes, and of course, now is attributing the red hankercheif to another (fabricated) suspect to deflect suspicion. Especially if he left it at the Kelly murder scene.

I think the former more likely.

[Sally]

Many of his details in the story, indeed even his specific wording, seem to be gleaned directly from the papers

Indeed Abby - and as far as I'm concerned, it's looking increasingly likely that he did just that

Here's a question - if we could pinpoint Hutchinson's source of inspiration for his story, how would that - if at all - affect his suspect status?

[Abby Normal]

Indeed Abby - and as far as I'm concerned, it's looking increasingly likely that he did just that

Here's a question - if we could pinpoint Hutchinson's source of inspiration for his story, how would that - if at all - affect his suspect status?

Hi Sally
Raise it of course.

I have often felt Hutchs inspiration for Aman might have been a rich man of whom he was jealous of and didn't like. Perhaps someone he used to work for and/or fired him. Maybe a rich horse owning Jew. You know-Romford, groom, horseshoe pin and all that.

And then he added details to that from what he read in the papers about other suspects.

[martin wilson]

Hi Abbey and Sally.

Thank you, informative and interesting.
One query, Wasn't the previous man dressed 'somewhat like a sailor'? Astrakhan man obviously wasn't. However it's certainly possible that he was a conflation of the previous suspect and Leather Apron or at least a jewish suspect.
One peculiarity is the clarity of the description.I vaguely remember a mother who killed her children in the USA who described a black assailant. Iirc a policeman described him as 'a smudge in a hat'. Obviously, because he didn't exist.
The significance of the red handkerchief takes on a new importance seen in the light of your insights, and indicates Hutchison was possibly a reward seeker (although exactly how is a mystery) or someone who as you say had read about the case and was looking to get involved for some reason.
Gut instinct say's he's important, Hutchison, but exactly how I don't know.
All the best.

[John G]

Hi Sally
Raise it of course.

I have often felt Hutchs inspiration for Aman might have been a rich man of whom he was jealous of and didn't like. Perhaps someone he used to work for and/or fired him. Maybe a rich horse owning Jew. You know-Romford, groom, horseshoe pin and all that.

And then he added details to that from what he read in the papers about other suspects.

Hi Abby,

What do you think of Richard's argument on the other thread, that Aman could be Francis Thompson?

[Sally]

No, I've just pinched myself and this really isn't a dream ...

Nightmare?

Druitt and Isaacs???

In it together? Perhaps they met in the fancy coat shop?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

What do you think of Richard's argument on the other thread, that Aman could be Francis Thompson?

not much

[Wickerman]

Except for discrepancy of in the press account he now says he followed them into the court and stands outside her apartment.

HUGE discrepancy IMHO.....

That has to be one of the most amusing objections ever put forward.
"I went to the court" - means he stood outside the entry?

Take for example, "I went to the Church", are you suggesting this means standing at the door, but not going inside?

What about, "I went to the Mall", "I went to the Hospital", "I went to the Market", "I went to Mitre Square".

Do none of these expressions mean going "in to" the Mall, or "in to" the Hospital, or "in to" the Market, or "in to" Mitre Square?

"I went to the Court" means just the same as the examples above, unless you can offer a case for special pleading?

[Abby Normal]

That has to be one of the most amusing objections ever put forward.
"I went to the court" - means he stood outside the entry?

Take for example, "I went to the Church", are you suggesting this means standing at the door, but not going inside?

What about, "I went to the Mall", "I went to the Hospital", "I went to the Market", "I went to Mitre Square".

Do none of these expressions mean going "in to" the Mall, or "in to" the Hospital, or "in to" the Market, or "in to" Mitre Square?

"I went to the Court" means just the same as the examples above, unless you can offer a case for special pleading?

context wicky.CONTEXT.
And I see you left out the next sentence-I stood there for three quarters of an hour to see if they would come out.

Yeah he stood IN THE COURT by her apartment for 45 minutes.

Get a grip.