Proof of identity

[richardnunweek]

Bob,
Many thanks for the huge letters, I can actually read that without my glasses.with regard to my reading ability, I consider myself capable of interpreting the meaning of sentences, also I never find it hard to remember my name, which is Richard Brian Nunweek, unfortunately it appears that is somewhat harder for you to comprehend, thus the term 'Nunners' being subsituted on a now 'Regular basis'
I really am bewildered, as too why your posts to me are full of childish remarks, when all I have done is start a thread that I thought worthy of discussion, which I can honestly say in all the threads I have created during my nine years with Casebook[ and there are many]very few have not been well received, and good debate has resulted.
To sum up.
Ii is my believe that Gwth was the original Gh, and I used the American article to endorse that, I will not waver on my claim of that elusive radio programme, which appears according to you, as either a lie, or confusion on my part.
I noticed that you are taking part in a thread on a rival site, which at least has some believers present.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

Hi Richard,

I noticed that you are taking part in a thread on a rival site, which at least has some believers present.

"Mr. Poster" is not a believer in the Toppy theory. Mr. Poster is someone who read Phillip Sugden's book once because everyone was talking about it, immediately endorsed the unpopular theory advanced therein, up to and including the obvious "Severin Klosowski was Mr. Astrakhan" fallacy, and then tried to argue aggressively against anything that interfered with the shepherding of that theory.

Don't get me wrong, he's a hellova nice guy a lot of the time, and it's a shame he's placed me on ignore on the grounds of my "barely concealed psychosis", but I'd err on the side of caution and chalk his remarks up to a desire to get one over on the "pro-GHers" rather than any particular adherence to the Toppy theory.

But since he's wondering about the original "source" for the paper article, let's look at what the "Wheeling Register" headline announced:

Gossip Concerning the Fiend’s Latest Atrocity

Gossip.

A frank avowel on the part on American newspaper that it was picking up "gossip" from the East End. If we explore a number of other claims in that same article, such as Barnett being "furiously drunk at the inquest" or that he was living with a "notorious character", it immediately becomes clear just what sort of quality "gossip" we're dealing with here.

[Stephen Thomas]

Is it known how Fairclough and Reg got together? The interview took place after the first edition of Ripper and the Royals was published and appears in an appendix in the second edition. Fairclough says he had the 'good fortune' to interview Reg but doesn't say how the meeting came about. My best guess is that Reg contacted Fairclough after reading the first edition.

[Ben]

Hi Stephen,

That's possible. I'd say it's more likely that Fairclough ploughed through the phone book contacting anyone named "Hutchinson" living in the right area hoping to hit gold. A sort of:

- Hello. This is a long shot shot, but are you related to a man named George Hutchinson who was a witness in the JTR case?

- Ermm.....yeah!

[Bob Hinton]

The Meeting

Is it known how Fairclough and Reg got together? The interview took place after the first edition of Ripper and the Royals was published and appears in an appendix in the second edition. Fairclough says he had the 'good fortune' to interview Reg but doesn't say how the meeting came about. My best guess is that Reg contacted Fairclough after reading the first edition.

I believe, but I am no means sure of this, that after the first edition came out it was Sickert who made the introduction of Reg to Fairclough.

[David Knott]

On statistical grounds alone, I don't think that G W T can be entirely dismissed.

A quick play on the Ancestry website reveals only 17 George Hutchinsons living in London in 1891 aged 20 to 40 in 1888. (OK - there is nothing to say that he was still living in London in 1891, nor that he was aged 20 to 40 in 1888, but it gives us an idea of the sort of numbers we are dealing with)

Of these 17, six were still living with their parents in 1891, and most of the others are unlikely due to their marital status and the age and birth locations of their children.

In fact, G W T would rank as one of the better bets. Granted, his occupation is wrong, but I can't find any whose occupation is right. He could easily have got work as a groom or a labourer after leaving home, before taking up the family trade of plumbing.

I suspect that no-one has done more than Bob to trace the witness GH, and he certainly argues his case more coherently than Richard, but I think the Toppster is worthy of further investigation.

Certainly the discrepancy in signatures would have to be a big minus, but then Reg's story would have to be a plus (even accepting Bob's point about fathers making up stories)

My concern would be that anyone trying to trace GH would have found GWTH by a process of elimination, and the scenario suggested by Ben a couple of posts ago may have resulted.

[Tom_Wescott]

it's a shame he's placed me on ignore on the grounds of my "barely concealed psychosis",

No worries, Ben. Most of us find your barely concealed psychosis to be an integral part of your charm. Keep it up!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Suzi]

GWTH?? Has anyone told Nunners that that doesn't exist as a Christian name?.....Joke!!!!....:/.....Just checking the old Fairclough /Joseph S meeting thing here...MUST be after 1991

[Ben]

Hi David,

You've highlighted one of the chief stumbling blocks for anyone seeking to identify the "real" George Hutchinson. None of them fit the bill very well at all. It's entirely possible that the witness known to the police as "George Hutchinson" gave a false name when signing his account. However, even if we were to restrict our search to "George Hutchinsons", there are others who fit the bill a good deal better than Toppy. For example, there are at least three who can be placed in the East End at more of less the relevent time; one a butcher living in Shadwell, another a glass-cutter living in the same area (as I recall) and another by the name of George Thomas Hutchison who lived in Mile End, was arrested for theft, and was known to frequent Aldgate. At least one document examiner believed the signatures matched. Then there's Bob Hinton's early candidate, born in Shadwell. His signature didn't match either, but he's still a better bet than Toppy, who can't be pinned to the East End until he met his future wife in 1895.

He could easily have got work as a groom or a labourer after leaving home, before taking up the family trade of plumbing.

Unfortunately not. Plumbers were apprenticed at a very young age in those days, and indeed, Reg referred to his father as having worked as a plumber all his life, and that he was "rarely, if ever, out of work". If, at eighteen, he decided to embark upon three "wilderness years" in the East End, during which he established acquaintanceships with East End prostitutes whilst living in a doss house in one of the worst grot-spots in London and doing a bit of grooming and labouring whenever "in work", there's no way he could establish himself as a self-employed plumber thereafter. He would have missed the boat.

I'd respectfully beg to differ when you argue that Reg's story counts in favour of his candidacy. The whole "My dad saw Churchill" episode hinders Toppy's eligibility for the Hutchinson mantle more than it bolsters it.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Tom, I'll try unconcealed psychosis next time. Perhaps that'll bring Lars back.

[David Knott]

Hi Ben,

All fair points, although Toppy's own father was a 'labourer' for a while before becoming a plumber.

I'm not going overboard about Reg's story, far from it, but I think it would still have to count as positive evidence, however slight.

No doubt lots of others have played about on Ancestry before me, so I don't expect to find anything new, but I'll keep looking!

David

[Suzi]

Lars is over on Forums-
But for sheer lunacy have a look at this lot..

http://www.suttonhousesociety.org.uk/Archive/Newsletter200204.htm#Midsommer

[http://www.theirvingsociety.org.uk/r...the_lyceum.htm

[Ben]

Hi David,

Whenever I come across George Snr in the census records, he is listed as a plumber rather than a labourer, and Toppy himself was recorded as such in the 1891 census when he was living in Warren Street. This would mesh up well with Reg's recollection that his father was rarely, if ever, out of plumbing work, but remains heavily at odds with the image of a labouring former groom living in the East End.

Best of luck with your research endeavours!

Cheers,
Ben

[David Knott]

Hi Ben,

I was looking at the 1841 census - George Snr was only 15 at the time.

David

[Ben]

Lars is over on Forums-

So he is, Suzi, and he says:

Iys a remarkable coincidence that Nunners tale and an obscure paper report both mention the same figure give or take a shilling.

But of course. If two zero-provenance sources - one gossip from America, the other a 1992 claim from a man saying his dad saw Churchill the Ripper - agree with eachother, of course that makes it correct. Sorry Lars, two wrongs don't make a right, and two nil provenance sources certainly don't equate to good provenance. It's gossip. It was acknowledged as gossip, and given the additional rumours that Barnett was furiously drunk and living with a notorious Whitechapel denizen, it's a hugely safe bet that the "gossip" was nonsense.

But gossip, however nonsensical, has a reputation for spreading through the populace, just as gladstone bags and "leather apron" did. Doesn't make it true or accurate, but it does increase the likelihood of it being bandied around and surviving a few generations. Of course, when we actually consider the likelihood of the police "paying off" a witness to the tune of £5 in 1888, the house of cards collapses further. If the police adopted that strategy, they'd be bombarded with false witnesses all waiting to get paid off.

Then Lars says that Sue Iremonger's comparison doesn't count because the three signatures were different anyway, forgetting of course that she examined all of them and none of them matched Toppy.

Don't make me come over there, Lars...

[jmenges]

Hi David,

You may come across one George Hutchinson who is from Canada and living with his wife and family in London. This is the illustrator George Hutchinson. He worked with Conan Doyle on the first illustrations for the Sherlock Holmes stories.

JM