Hutch Photo

[Garry Wroe]

Sorry, Sam, but since I am utterly bewildered by your logic, I think it would perhaps be better for all concerned if we simply agreed to disagree.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[Sam Flynn]

[FONT=Verdana]
In which case, Sam, if you’d care to check the following image, you’ll find the sketch of Hutchinson is situated almost directly beneath a pen portrait that you accept to have constituted a good likeness of Abberline.

Based on the Leman Street photograph, yes - can't see anything wrong with that, Garry. You see, we have no such contemporary photograph of Hutchinson nor, in fact, another contemporary sketch of him that I can recall - so the situation is fundamentally different. That the two sketches appear on the same page is neither here nor there - it certainly doesn't mean that either was drawn from life.

Abberline was a long-serving, locally well-known, police official, prominent in the case - which makes him rather more likely to have been logged somewhere, whether on file, in silver halide or in the sketch-artists' memories. He was certainly out and about in the streets at the time, at inquests, press-conferences (plural) and crime-scenes. A rather different proposition from George Hutchinson, whose star shone but briefly, and of whose direct contact with the writers of the Penny Illustrated, never mind the sketch-artist, we have no proof whatsoever.

As, in fact, I said above, albeit in other words. It still applies, and it remains consistent with what I've said elsewhere.

[DVV]

Hi Jon and Garry,

May I remark that the question of Hutch's identity and appearance is a bit more relevant than Abberline's features...
No Mormon-like hats on a Ripper suspect, that's what came out of this thread, imo, it having shifted from Hutch photo to Hutch sketch.

Amitiés,
David

[Garry Wroe]

I followed the thread in question, Jon, and very interesting it was too. But given the poor quality of the group photograph along with the uncertainty as to whether Abberline was actually in attendance, we are left with an intriguing possibility rather than unassailable proof of identity, I’m afraid.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[Jon Guy]

there exists considerable uncertainty as to which member of the Leman Street assemblage was actually Abberline – if indeed he was present at all.

Hi Garry

No considerable uncertainty at all, have a look from post 27 :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2870&page=3

[Garry Wroe]

Absolutely, Dave. And, just to add to the confusion, there was a wideawake that had a broader brim in the style of the trilby.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

I don’t think it unreasonable to suppose that this ‘man of military bearing’ might have dressed up for the occasion, wearing his Sunday best bowler or billycock hat, and that this was the image captured by an attendant sketch artist. Of course, it is even possible that the hat depicted in the sketch is indeed a wideawake.
]

Hi Garry and all,

I'm just back from the thread "Seeing Sarah..." from the rich and unforgettable Hutchinson collection... and it's even simpler than that.

It seems that "Wideawake hat" in our 1888 context, actually refers to "Billycock hats".

They were almost synonimous, the "Mormon-type" wideawake being a special type, but certainly most unusual in the East End. Better forget it!
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...1&postcount=31

Hutch's hat, in the sketch, could therefore be both described as a wideawake and a billycock.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

Obviously, Toppy's head is too long for that Hutch.

Amitiés,
David

[Garry Wroe]

The matter of the Abberline photograph is quite different, in that we had a well-known drawing of Abberline in "Toby" magazine which, if overlaid onto the Leman Street station group photo, pointed strongly to the magazine artist basing his sketch on an actual photograph of Abberline. To that extent, questioning the source material becomes somewhat irrelevant. At the very least, the "Toby" sketch may be corroborated in some way by an existing, near-contemporary photograph.

The only problem being, Sam, is that there exists considerable uncertainty as to which member of the Leman Street assemblage was actually Abberline – if indeed he was present at all.

I hardly think that the Penny Illustrated and its ilk can be considered as containing faithful sketches of the protagonists, Garry.

In which case, Sam, if you’d care to check the following image, you’ll find the sketch of Hutchinson is situated almost directly beneath a pen portrait that you accept to have constituted a good likeness of Abberline.



As a point of clarification, Sam, I have never argued that the illustrated newspapers presented ‘faithful sketches of the protagonists’. I have merely stated it as my belief that the Hutchinson image was liable to have been a reasonable likeness of the man. If, on the other hand, there is evidence to support the notion of generic representations of witnesses, policemen or ‘East End geezers’, I would welcome the opportunity to evaluate it.

Best wishes.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

... and, come to that, the self-evidently "Generic Mary Kelly" and "Generic Mr Astrakhan" from the same source.

Yes Sam,

an interesting difference being that this "Generic Mr Astrakhan" is definitely based on Hutch's statements.
It's not often that real suspects look like images d'Epinal...

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

With all due respect, Sam, you contributed a number of posts to the Abberline Photo thread yet never once questioned the reliability of the source material.

The matter of the Abberline photograph is quite different, in that we had a well-known drawing of Abberline in "Toby" magazine which, if overlaid onto the Leman Street station group photo, pointed strongly to the magazine artist basing his sketch on an actual photograph of Abberline. To that extent, questioning the source material becomes somewhat irrelevant. At the very least, the "Toby" sketch may be corroborated in some way by an existing, near-contemporary photograph.

That is more than can be said of the "Generic East End Geezer" in the Penny Illustrated... and, come to that, the self-evidently "Generic Mary Kelly" and "Generic Mr Astrakhan" from the same source.

Given that similar levels of concordance may be discerned with respect to the sketches of other case-related protagonists

I hardly think that the Penny Illustrated and its ilk can be considered as containing faithful sketches of the protagonists, Garry. Even if that were not the case, we don't even know that Hutchinson appeared in person before its journalists, let alone its illustrators - indeed, why would he?

[Garry Wroe]

The Penny Illustrated - like its soul-mate, the "IPN" - can hardly be relied upon for the accuracy of its drawings, Garry. Besides, would the public really care if a newspaper sketch of an East End geezer wasn't particularly accurate to begin with? And, what's more, how would most of its readers know?

With all due respect, Sam, you contributed a number of posts to the Abberline Photo thread yet never once questioned the reliability of the source material – a sensible approach given that the four independent sketches of Abberline revealed a high degree of similitude. Given that similar levels of concordance may be discerned with respect to the sketches of other case-related protagonists, I remain of the opinion that the Hutchinson sketch assumes at least a passable representation of Hutchinson’s general appearance. But I remain open to persuasion, so would welcome other examples of this ‘generic East End geezer’ if they can be found.

All the best.

Garry Wroe.

[DVV]

Can anyone see ear-rings on Reeves, on the famous sketch from "Famous Crimes, past and present, one penny" ?
I used to have good eyes, but since Hutch beat me, I somatize.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

That’s always a possibility, Sam, but unlikely in my view. Since illustrations increased unit sales, it was in the best interest of newspaper editors to maintain standards of accuracy.

The Penny Illustrated - like its soul-mate, the "IPN" - can hardly be relied upon for the accuracy of its drawings, Garry. Besides, would the public really care if a newspaper sketch of an East End geezer wasn't particularly accurate to begin with? And, what's more, how would most of its readers know?

[DVV]

Hi Garry,

You may be a bit optimistic here.
Isn't that remarkable that we don't possess any description of Hutch ?
Was he tall? Young ?
Surprisingly, press reports tell us more about forgotten witness such as Reeves or Crow.
This said, Hutch probably looked like the "generic East End geezer" Sam has alluded to...

Amitiés,
David