The Leander Analysis

[babybird67]

I agree that had Leander had the other 2 statement sigs then that would have been better - although he could still be supplied with them - Why don't you try that BB, that'd make your query actually useful.

KR,
Vic.

Thanks Vic but i prefer to trust my own judgement about whether what i am doing is useful or not...i especially don't defer to people who can't see self-selecting evidence is bias, as that is just plain stupid. No offence.

[Victor]

Hi Victor, neither of those questions really qualify as pestering when contrasted with, say, a post that outlines in depth what an unsavoury character a total stranger is supposed to be, and how that total stranger must not be listened to or agreed with because he supposedly accused the pesteree of lying.

Hi Ben,

I must have missed it when Fish posted that he'd done that, is it in this thread or the other?

KR,
Vic.

ps. I disagree, it doesn't matter what comparisons you draw, the two quoted questions are nothing to do with document examining.

[Ben]

Hi Victor,

I can't see there's a huge difference in the methodology used.

The difference in the methodology used was as follows:

Iremonger was supplied with original documents that included all three statement signatures, thus conforming to the guidelines explicitly preferred by document examiners who either request or seek to obtain as many examples of the individual's handwriting as possible.

Leander was sent a "montage" copied from a message board thread and pasted into an email, which gave no accurate impression of comparative size, and were not provided in the context of the rest of the pages to which they were originally appended. The two other statement signatures were deliberately withheld for no good reason, and contrary to the preferences of the document examining practitioners.

That's a significant difference in the "methogology used".

Best regards,
Ben

[Victor]

Thanks Vic but i prefer to trust my own judgement about whether what i am doing is useful or not...i especially don't defer to people who can't see self-selecting evidence is bias, as that is just plain stupid. No offence.

Well if you could actually confirm that any self-selecting happened, then I would agree with you.

I've never said the original query was biased or not, I said that he asked a different question to the one you wanted answering

And if you can't see that your utterly irrelevant questions are just going to wind up Leander and cause him to withdraw from further comments, then I can only assume that you are either doing it deliberately to then be able to crow "He won't even defend himself, we've won!", or that you are the stupid one. No offence.

KR,
Vic.

[Fisherman]

Victor, the material sent to Leander was a compilation of the third witness signature, the marriage license signature signed by Toppy and nine signatures made by Toppy in the 1911 census listings. You find it, posted by Sam Flynn, on page 57 of the "Hutch in the 1911 census" thread!

The best,
Fisherman

[babybird67]

Well if you could actually confirm that any self-selecting happened, then I would agree with you.

I've never said the original query was biased or not, I said that he asked a different question to the one you wanted answering

And if you can't see that your utterly irrelevant questions are just going to wind up Leander and cause him to withdraw from further comments, then I can only assume that you are either doing it deliberately to then be able to crow "He won't even defend himself, we've won!", or that you are the stupid one. No offence.

KR,
Vic.

Vic...i have to believe you are being deliberately obtuse. Only one of three extant witness signatures was sent to Leander. All three were compared by Iremonger. Fish contacted Leander. He chose not to supply Leander with all three. He did this because the third signature was apparently the one that most match Toppy's signature. That is self-selecting evidence. Read Ben's post regarding methodology above. There are only so many times this can be explained to someone without the person explaining thinking they are wasting their time as the recipient is just resistant to receiving the information. No offence.

I'll ask Leander what i think is relevant, not what somebody else thinks is relevant. I'm a grown up. I can think for myself thanks. If you want to ask him something else, you know his email address. I wont tell you what to ask him though. I'll let you make your own mind up. Kindly afford me the same courtesy eh?

[Victor]

Victor, the material sent to Leander was a compilation of the third witness signature, the marriage license signature signed by Toppy and nine signatures made by Toppy in the 1911 census listings. You find it, posted by Sam Flynn, on page 57 of the "Hutch in the 1911 census" thread!

Just checked it, thank you.

So was it Sam\Gareth who selected which of the signatures, and you just asked Leander to comapre them?

KR,
Vic.

[Jane Welland]

hi All..

I’m not sure I think Leander should be sent any further material unless he has first indicated that he would be happy and willing to receive such. I personally feel that Leander has had his goodwill imposed upon quite enough already.

From what I can see, his initial response was quite adequate.

I would be unsurprised if he did declare himself unwilling to further engage with this debate, particularly since Fisherman saw fit to include his own personal and negative view of another poster in his last substantial communication.

Who could blame Leander, who, by Fisherman’s own contention - is one of Sweden’s foremost leading experts in his field – for thinking this debate a lot of childish nonsense when presented with that sort of pettiness?

Sorry Fisherman, but you wouldn’t like it if somebody did it to you, would you? Nobody likes being abused – it works both ways.

Regards to All

Jane x

[Victor]

Vic...i have to believe you are being deliberately obtuse. Only one of three extant witness signatures was sent to Leander. All three were compared by Iremonger. Fish contacted Leander. He chose not to supply Leander with all three. He did this because the third signature was apparently the one that most match Toppy's signature. That is self-selecting evidence. Read Ben's post regarding methodology above. There are only so many times this can be explained to someone without the person explaining thinking they are wasting their time as the recipient is just resistant to receiving the information. No offence.

I'm just waiting for Fish to confirm that it was Gareth who chose the signatures or him, so you might be wrong here.

I'll ask Leander what i think is relevant, not what somebody else thinks is relevant. I'm a grown up. I can think for myself thanks. If you want to ask him something else, you know his email address. I wont tell you what to ask him though. I'll let you make your own mind up. Kindly afford me the same courtesy eh?

Right, well you've been warned beforehand that if you ask those questions and get a dismissive answer then it's your fault and will do significant damage to your argument and conclusions.

[Fisherman]

Hi Victor!

Sam was the one who made the compilation, but he had nothing to do with what material was sent to Leander; he did not even know that it was done, until afterwards.

I was having a brawl with Ben, who categorically stated that the signatures were very much unalike,whereas I thought them very much alike.

I had earlier spoken to Leander in a related errand, and so I simply copied Sams compilation and sent it over, asking him if he would comment on whether he believed that all the signatures of the compilation could have been by the same hand. I was looking for some sort of verdict that would or would not prove me right in my belief that the signatures WERE very much alike.

I received Leanders answer, and published it with the addition of what material he had looked at.

And today, I am accused of all sorts of things, although I have from the outset placed ALL cards on the table for EVERYONE to see. If that does not sit well with some (and it would not...!), that is their problem, as far as I can see.

The best,
Fisherman
who will be off-line the nearest hours - at the very least

[babybird67]

I'm just waiting for Fish to confirm that it was Gareth who chose the signatures or him, so you might be wrong here.

Sam's purposes in posting the montage was to show us posters here the perceived similarities. At no point did he select them to email to an individual for an appraisal. Sam is a scientist. I should think self-selecting such material in such a way would be anathema to him.

Fish chose to send that particular montage to Leander. So don't tell me i am wrong because i am not. Fish could easily have chosen to send Leander this montage, also posted by Sam i believe:







As you can see, this would have given Leander the opportunity to see all three extant signatures and actually make an informed opinion about the matter. Fish chose what to email Leander...don't attibute that choice to Sam. Or anyone else.

Right, well you've been warned beforehand that if you ask those questions and get a dismissive answer then it's your fault and will do significant damage to your argument and conclusions.

Whatever.

[Ben]

I was having a brawl with Ben, who categorically stated that the signatures were very much unalike

I'm not in the business of "categorically stating". I prefer to opine on the basis of the extant evidence. It all seems incredibly silly, upon reflection, that it should have led to a "brawl" when the more sensible option was to agree to disagree and move on. Your decision to contact Leander was perfectly admirable at the time, but the fatal error - to my mind - was your failure to allow his initial letter to stand unfiddled with.

[Victor]

Sam's purposes in posting the montage was to show us posters here the perceived similarities. At no point did he select them to email to an individual for an appraisal. Sam is a scientist. I should think self-selecting such material in such a way would be anathema to him.

Fish chose to send that particular montage to Leander. So don't tell me i am wrong because i am not. Fish could easily have chosen to send Leander this montage, also posted by Sam i believe:

Apart from that one not having the 10 signatures needed. Try again.

Sam selected them (for whatever purpose). Fish emailed off Sam's selection, he could have snet a different selection but didn't.

As you can see, this would have given Leander the opportunity to see all three extant signatures and actually make an informed opinion about the matter. Fish chose what to email Leander...don't attibute that choice to Sam. Or anyone else.

That selection was insufficient. Fish chose what to send, he opted to send Sam's selection\collection\montage.

KR,
Vic.

[Ben]

Apart from that one not having the 10 signatures needed. Try again.

Huh?

If 10 signatures were "needed" then it makes even less sense to send Leander just one when there was opportunity to send more. At least Gareth's montage, as quoted by Babybird above, included the other two signatures, as well as the horizontal lines beneath the signatures (used to convey differing angles with reasonable accuracy).

[babybird67]

Apart from that one not having the 10 signatures needed. Try again.

Yep you are right. Someone should have montaged the whole lot of them imo. That wasnt done though. The full picture was never given. That's why many of us were arguing against Fish who continued to claim we had a "full and detailed" report, when even the man who contributed that report told him point blank it was no such thing. Onus is on Fish to have sent the right material, not me.

Sam selected them (for whatever purpose). Fish emailed off Sam's selection, he could have snet a different selection but didn't.

Quite. I am glad you acknowledge it was Fish's choice. However, this would have been fine had Fish acknowledged what had been told to him by Leander and what had been reiterated by many of us, that we did not have a full expert professional opinion, but a ""spontaneous" and "personal" one. It is when Fish tried to overemphasise everything from Leander that some of us found issue with him.

That selection was insufficient. Fish chose what to send, he opted to send Sam's selection\collection\montage.

Totally agree. Totally insufficient. So said Leander. So said Ben. So said I and a number of others...at least we are beginning to agree on something at last.