Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[The Rookie Detective]

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Fascinating


RD

[Paddy]

Also Sally

His wife died after 3 years of marriage in 1898 and he later married her sister Minnie Amelia Vines in Islington around 1900...In the 1901 census she is Amelia Hutchinson....

Pat.......................

[Paddy]

Sally,

Hi Sally I did see that he possibly went to court for larceny from a ship and receiving, on 16th Jan 1873. He was aquitted.
Saw the wedding, signature not the one is it. Actually the registras looked more like it !...

Of all the signatures I have looked at I can honestly say I have not found any quite right.

In my own family we had a man who ran off with another woman and started another family. It was definitely the same chap but the signatures were quite different when compared. There was about 10 or so years between the writing of them though.

If I find any more I will let you know

Pat..........................

[Sally]

Hi Sally, Thanks for the info. I had found that family too when checking out Georges and wondered about the Seaman. I think I found that he had been to sea a few times, I will try to check it out. This George son of Kezia was high on my list of possibles.

Hi Pat - I got this from old notes; I've looked into a lot of people, but seldom get anywhere! Well, once or twice, perhaps. I hadn't found that this George had been to sea a few times, but obviously to be expected. In any event, by the time he was marrried, he seems to have quit that life. I don't think I followed him any further than that, so any later records for him would be interesting.

One thing that drew me was that he came from East End, his mum came from Leytonstone (not too far from Romford) and that she had moved south of the River. If he did return to or stay in the Whitechapel area he would probably have used the lodging houses. I also connected the training ship and his military type mentioned. I never did find his marriage so thats a great bit of info, Thanks.

If it is his brother living in Dorset street thats another connection.
I love the process of elimination.......Thankyou !

Yes, I take your point about this George - but have a look at his marriage certificate and see what you think. With regard to John, I think there's a real possibility of a match with the Dorset St lodger; since I haven't found John William in the 1881 census or the lodger anywhere else. Obviously there could be other explanations - but possible, certainly.

Good luck with your research!

[Paddy]

This John?

Hi Sally, Thanks for the info. I had found that family too when checking out Georges and wondered about the Seaman. I think I found that he had been to sea a few times, I will try to check it out. This George son of Kezia was high on my list of possibles.

One thing that drew me was that he came from East End, his mum came from Leytonstone (not too far from Romford) and that she had moved south of the River. If he did return to or stay in the Whitechapel area he would probably have used the lodging houses. I also connected the training ship and his military type mentioned. I never did find his marriage so thats a great bit of info, Thanks.

If it is his brother living in Dorset street thats another connection.
I love the process of elimination.......Thankyou !

Pat.......................

[Paddy]

To .....I'veBeenToMitreSquare

Hello

I think the observation I was making was that there appeared to be a general idea (see below) that Hutchingson was round about similarish age to Mary and this was not the impression I got.
Her respect for Mr Hutchingson said a lot....But then as someone commented earlier, they were only Hutchingsons words.

Both Topping and Kelly were only a couple of years apart in age, so it is feasible that they could have known each other,



Pat................................

[I'veBeenToMitreSquare]

I always got the impression that Hutchinson was older than Mary Jane Kelly.
When she saw him that night didnt she address him as Mr Hutchinson?
To me that implys respect, possibly as he was older than her. If he knew her for a few years I wonder why she didnt call him George?

Pat............................................... .....

I'm, erm, 50 and I still address older people as Mr or Mrs soandso. In years gone by, that would have been quite normal I'd have thought.

[Sally]

This John?

Paddy -


If you haven’t already, you might be like to look at John William Hutchinson, born c.1862 in Whitechapel to John and Kezia(h). In 1871 he was living at 31 Alie Street with his parents; brothers George and James; sisters Sarah and Emily and grandmother Anne Plumb. His mother Keziah was from Leytonstone in Essex, his father from Nottinghamshire. The next time he can be definitely identified as far as I can see is in 1890, when he married Jane Carver in Bermondsey on 9th November (co-incidence, I’m sure…) So (unless I’ve missed him, of course) he could possibly be identified with the John Hutchinson living in the Dorset St. Lodging house – a variant of 3 years in birth date is nothing significant. By the time he was married, he was working as a dyer; his profession from then on. That wasn’t an inherited profession – his father was a cook. JW and his wife lived at Lucey Road, Bermondsey, for at least 20 years. They had 4 children - none survived. His marriage certificate and 1911 census entry are both on Ancestry, so you can check those out if you want to. From memory, John’s brother, George (b.1866) trained at on the training ship Exmouth in Grays, where he is listed in the 1881 census. He can be seen in the 1891 census at his mother’s house in Newington, listed as a seaman. He married Rachel Wines on 1st September 1895, at which time he was listed as a labourer. Again, his marriage certificate should be on Ancestry to look at.

[Paddy]

Question

Has any of you ever found the John Hutchinson born 1859, Labourer, living in 9-11 Dorset Street in 1881, in any other census ?

Pat..................................

[The Good Michael]

Both Topping and Kelly were only a couple of years apart in age, so it is feasible that they could have known each other,

Odd logic - similarity of age surely does not relate to whether two people could have known each other?

Age, social class and proximity would have thrown them together more likely than Kelly having become friends with the queen (assuming she had any). The 3 pieces together, I would argue, are an important combination, so let's not dismiss age altogether as a factor.

Mike

[Phil H]

Both Topping and Kelly were only a couple of years apart in age, so it is feasible that they could have known each other,

Odd logic - similarity of age surely does not relate to whether two people could have known each other?

The only consideration is death dates. You CANNOT know someone dead before your own birth - but one meets people of all ages through one's life. I have had many friends older and younger than i am - i still do.

Besides MJK was a whore and would have known older men - perhaps as regular customers.

Hutinson's age relative to MJK is irrelevant.

A Breezer's hill connection is not.

Phil

[Wickerman]

I always got the impression that Hutchinson was older than Mary Jane Kelly.
When she saw him that night didnt she address him as Mr Hutchinson?
To me that implys respect, possibly as he was older than her. If he knew her for a few years I wonder why she didnt call him George?

Pat............................................... .....

Hi Pat.
Bare in mind these are Hutchinson's words, not Mary's.
Also, it was customary in those days to address a man more formerly than we might today.
Then again, it could also be argued that an unmarried woman should address a married man with the formal title of 'Mr' as opposed to the informal christian name of George.

We can read these words given second-hand in various ways.

[Paddy]

Hutchinsons age.

I always got the impression that Hutchinson was older than Mary Jane Kelly.
When she saw him that night didnt she address him as Mr Hutchinson?
To me that implys respect, possibly as he was older than her. If he knew her for a few years I wonder why she didnt call him George?

Pat............................................... .....

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
If Reg, or family of Topping, validated that the tale of GWTH was false then I would consider any other Hutchinson named.
But In the case of the late Reg [ son of Topping] he was adamant during his life that his father was Hutchinson the witness that knew Mary Kelly, and his younger brother also was aware of the same Tale from his father.
To suggest that the witness was another individual is flying against reality in my opinion.
Both Topping and Kelly were only a couple of years apart in age, so it is feasible that they could have known each other, they both resided in 1888 in the same area, and Topping admitted to exactly what the statement read.
In order for the latter to falsify such a claim, he would have had to take over the identity and make it his own, complete with a payment addition, confirmed in a rare publication.
For what intention.?
Answers please on a postcard.
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

knew her

Hello Pat. Thanks.

Might that explain Hutch's claim to have known "MJK" for some time?

Cheers.
LC