Sam Flynn, really! As if my view would ever be tainted by hearsay! Logic for me-not faith. The signatures don't match-simple..
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Hutch in the 1911 Census?
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Ben writes:
"Toppy was certainly "ageing" between 1898 and 1911"
Yep, Ben - every second of that period he grew of older age, like we all do. And with that process comes changes in our signatures. And it is not as if the 1898 and 1911 signatures are exact copies of each other - to mention only one difference, there is the crossbar of the t sitting like a roof on the t and h 1898, a crossbar that later on moves downwards.
And, as I suggested: the fact that the consistency was there to a high degree in 1898 to 1911 may well be an indicator that it was not so ten years before - since signatures do change with time. Generally spoken.
" I'd imagine that such labour was likely to strengthen rather than enfeeble the hands and wrists in the long term".
I DOES strengthen you muscle-wise, Ben, and a plumber will have quite a firm handshake. But it does not strengthen the joints of the limbs - they are subjected to the kind of wear and tear that in the end leaves you with aching wrists and trembles and such things.
The best,
Fisherman
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Very succinctly put, Cyrtal. Agreed all round!
And it is not as if the 1898 and 1911 signatures are exact copies of each other - to mention only one difference, there is the crossbar of the t sitting like a roof on the t and h 1898, a crossbar that later on moves downwards
I'm not convinced that Toppy's work was likely to have an enfeebling effect on his hand, personally, especially as he grew older and was presumably in a better position to delegate while he did the ordering and measuring.
They do
Hi Mike,
Laborer becoming plumber is, as I've said, not even close to a stretch.
Best regards,
BenLast edited by Ben; 04-13-2009, 05:03 PM.
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Ben,
The census was every ten years. You have no idea what was going on fron 1888 to 1891. Perfect time for a 22 year-old who isn't making it aside from a little police cash, to try something else. In 1891 he was apparently struggling, same as 1888. Refute all you want. It doesn't work here. It was a heck of a lot less change than I went through from 22 to 25 years, and if you want to argue that he was 28 (fallacious though it may be), it was a lot less change than I went through from 28 - 31.
Cheers,
Mikehuh?
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In 1891 he was apparently struggling, same as 1888
We don't know that he was "struggling" in 1891 at all. He was listed as a plumber living in Warren Street - no evidence of struggle at all. If we're to trust Reg's word all of a sudden, it is noteworthy that he referred to his father as being "rarely, if ever, out of work", not a a struggling labourer who spent a few wilderness years in the skankiest area in the whole of London, spurning the potential opportunities provided by his father, before finding his feet.
I'm not arguing that he was 28, but it certainly wouldn't be "fallacious".
Best regards,
Ben
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We know that he live at a common lodging house in 1891. That is hardly striking it rich. Reg didn't know what his father was doing between 1888 and 1891. How could he? Neither has anyone said that Reg knew the whole truth. It is kind of pointless arguing about this. Your agenda only allows for refutation and blinkered logic. You argue rationally, but you champion the least likely. It gets tiresome, and your agenda won't let you back off.
Mikehuh?
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Hi Ben,Originally posted by Ben View PostWe don't know that he was "struggling" in 1891 at all. He was listed as a plumber living in Warren Street
Besides, as I've pointed out previously, Warren Street was hardly Shangri La in those days.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Crystal View PostAll Together Now-
'Oh No They Don't!'
'Oh Yes They Do!'
...Just a minute-I'm sure I've been here before..
Oh Well-
OH NO THEY DON'T!
I'm pig-sick of this.
People talk of the "field" of Ripperology - it's more like an energy-sapping bog.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Reg didn't know what his father was doing between 1888 and 1891. How could he?
His comments were not specific to the time Reg and Toppy became acquainted, i.e. from the former's birth. The fact that he was living in a lodging house in 1891 (albeit in the heart of the West End) is by no means indicative of a struggle, and it's still a far cry from the epicentre of slumsville. It's about what one would expect from a 25-year-old plumber of those days.
As for the rest, I do wish you'd accept that I simply disagree with you, and that there's no "agenda" or anything sinister behind that disagreement. You think I champion the least likely cause. Fair enough, I believe the same to be true of you, but I'm not accusing you of having any sinister agenda.
Best regards,
BenLast edited by Ben; 04-13-2009, 05:41 PM.
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