Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[Sam Flynn]

The professional handwriting analysts who examined the Toppy signatures...

... analyst - singular! - who didn't have the benefit of the 1911 signatures. And not a "professional handwriting analyst" as such, either, but a forensic document examiner - it's a broad topic, and by its very nature not as objective as some areas of "expertise". Not everyone who does something professionally excels in every aspect of their work in any case - be they doctors, builders, document examiners or anything else - so we shouldn't feel obligated to kneel down and worship at the altar of their opinions, still less assume automatically that they have "expertise" in every area of their subject.

[The Good Michael]

David,

I agree as well. And that may be why Lambeth George also has a similar style.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

David,

I agree as well. And that may be why Lambeth George also has a similar style.

....and that's why we shouldn't conclude categorically that Toppy is the witness.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

....and that's why we shouldn't conclude categorically that Toppy is the witness.

David,

My conclusion is based on the signatures we have. If others come to light, I'm always ready to jump ship. It's all about changing as situations change, isn't it? It certainly shouldn't be about preconceptions.

Cheers,

Mike

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Dave,

Mike answered for me, which is nice I would add, however, that I'm considering the bigger picture - as I'm sure are Mike, Fish and others. I'm looking at the location, the time, the no-doubt-romanticised family story AND the writing. All eleven samples of it - thirteen, if you include 1888p1-2. There may even be a vague hint provided in GWTH's misspelling of his son's name as "Lenoard" - this clearly isn't a particularly well-educated man, and his being a "labourer/groom" in 1888 is congruent with that observation.

It all fits, and it all adds up.

[Sam Flynn]

I agree as well. And that may be why Lambeth George also has a similar style.

... but only Lambeth George is similar, out of all the others, it seems, Mike. I can't help but note the irony of the fact that the compelling feature of Lambeth George's sig is the similarity of the "H" to that on 1888p1... the one signature Sue Iremonger suggests was written by Sergeant Badham!

[DVV]

There may even be a vague hint provided in GWTH's misspelling of his son's name as "Lenoard" - this clearly isn't a particularly well-educated man, and his being a "labourer/groom" in 1888 is congruent with that observation.

A vague hint, indeed, if not very vague.
I guess most of the Victoria Home lodgers in 1888 weren't particularly well-educated men. This would also apply to, let's say, a plasterer from Bethnal Green.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[The Good Michael]

I can't help but note the irony of the fact that the compelling feature of Lambeth George's sig is the similarity of the "H" to that on 1888p1... the one signature Sue Iremonger suggests was written by Sergeant Badham!

Exactly my thoughts, Gareth. She may be right on that one.

Mike

[DVV]

... but only Lambeth George is similar, out of all the others, it seems, Mike.

An obvious lack of objectivity, here, Sam.
"Only one"?
That one GH had a similar handwriting to another GH is something extremely significant, as you certainly understand.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

An obvious lack of objectivity, here, Sam.
"Only one"?

Neither obvious nor subjective, Dave! A plain statement of fact.

That one GH had a similar handwriting to another GH is something extremely significant, as you certainly understand.

I do - but it is surely also extremely significant that there were few George Hutchinsons around, and none of the others' signatures resemble 1888p3. It is also extremely significant that Toppy ends up marrying an East End girl, settles in Bethnal Green, and has a family tradition that he was the Kelly witness.

As I say - it all fits the big picture, and it all adds up.

[DVV]

I do - but it is surely also extremely significant that there were few George Hutchinsons around, and none of the others' signatures resemble 1888p3.

Now Sam, I know you're kidding.
Who is expecting all the known Hutchinsons to have a similar handwriting?

Amitiés,
David

edit: once more, I'm not saying that you're wrong, I just maintain that the Lambeth GH signature should prevent us to categorically identify Toppy as the witness because of his handwriting.

[Sam Flynn]

Now Sam, I know you're kidding.

I can assure you that I'm not, Dave.

Who is expecting all the known Hutchinsons to have a similar handwriting?

Not me, which is why it's significant that we've found only two - one of which by dint of his "H" looking like Sgt Badham's (?), the other marrying an East End girl, has a family tradition that he was the witness... etc. etc. etc.

[Sam Flynn]

I just maintain that the Lambeth GH signature should prevent us to categorically identify Toppy as the witness because of his handwriting.

I needn't see that it should "prevent" us, as such, Dave. I say that because I'm looking at the bigger picture, namely:

a) Lambeth George's signature is not as close a match as Toppy's is to that of the witness George Hutchinson;

b) If we are to worship at the altar of Sue Iremonger, Lambeth George wrote his "H"s like Sgt Badham! ;

c) Lambeth George had zero connections with the East End - he was born in Hertfordshire, and his wife came from Northwest London;

d) Toppy has the family history which, whilst anecdotal and almost certainly romanticised, is more than we can say for Lambeth George;

e) We've found no other "George Hutchinsons" whose writing comes close.

[DVV]

Hi again Sam,
what you call a "family tradition" is nothing more than a dubious statement by one Reg Hutchinson, son of Toppy, when in touch with a dubious ripperologist, "pour les besoins de la cause".
Such statement, with our old Jewish suspect changed into a churchillian figure, hasn't any value per se.
The fact that some of the signatures match (in your opinion) doesn't add any value to Reg's story.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

d) Toppy has the family history which, whilst anecdotal and almost certainly romanticised, is more than we can say for Lambeth George;

Sam,
I'm really not sure that this "family history" did exist before Reg was in touch with the author of "The Ripper and the Royals".

Amitiés,
David