Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah, but unless another expert is brought into it, there will always be those that will say the signatures are not the same, and that a prior expert discounted them as being the same.

Noble thoughts, Brenda, however:

a) I honestly believe that "expertise" in this area is not required. This is a rather straightforward case of visual comparison, which we are all capable of doing to a reasonable degree;

b) No matter which "experts" are involved there will almost certainly be dissenting opinion, so we'd probably get nowhere.

Me? I'm quite happy to trust the opinions of my own eyes.

[Ben]

Hi all,

Again, we're most emphatically not all experts. Document examiners are experts, in this case, which is why we employ document examiners. It isn't to do with having eyes, it's to do with having the ability to make sense of what we can see with our eyes, and some people are professionally trained to do that, whereas others are not. Most people here would consider themselves experts in their own professions with good reason, and I'm sure they would take considerable exception to the suggestion that anyone can do their job.

A professor of botany would be better placed than many to identify a particular sub-species of flower, but it would be redundant to hire one to confirm that a pair of flowers in a vase were both daffodils.

Ah, but such a professor would come in handy when confirming that one flower in a vase was a daffodil, while the other was a foxglove (analogous to Toppy and Hutch) .

Here we go round in circles.

Hypnotism, I swear.

Best regards,
Ben

[Brenda]

I wonder how hideously expensive a document examiner would be? Wonder if we could find a discount document examiner in these rough economic times?

[Malcolm X]

the donkey is dead....drop it on the floor, time to move on

[Fisherman]

Brenda asks:

"I wonder how hideously expensive a document examiner would be? Wonder if we could find a discount document examiner in these rough economic times?"

Let´s first see what examiner number one (Iremonger) actually said - and what she said it about. Regardless of the outcome of it, there will be valuable lessons to learn, I think.

Malcolm X writes:

"the donkey is dead....drop it on the floor, time to move on"

Some will, some won´t and some will lean in over that donkey and claim that it´s still breathing.

The best,
Fisherman

[Crystal]

So, what I want to know is, are the witness signatures and the 'Toppy' signatures the same?

All Together Now -

'Oh Yes They Are!'

'Oh No They're Not!'

'Oh Yes They Are!'

'Oh No Theyr'e Not!'

'Oh Yes They're Not!'

Umm.. that last one went a bit wrong...

If we take a step backwards, we see the following facts-

A person allegedly a 'document examiner' once upon a time compared the signatures and found in her opinion that they were not by the same hand.

A professional in this field (whatever they call themselves) makes a living out of it. That's what 'Professional' means.

Logically (and anyone who wishes to argue should use logical responses, please, and not those of the 'because I say so' variety) therefore, it stands to reason that people who make their living out of document examination must be quite good at it, since otherwise, they wouldn't make any money out of it.

If Sue Iremonger is such a person - I have no way of telling, since I do not know her personally - then it must therefore stand to reason that she knows what she's talking about.

OK so far?

Next - If anyone could do this, and there were no special skill involved in detailed document analysis, then Sue Iremonger, and many others besides, would be out of job, because people would just do it themselves and save the expense.

End of facts.

Now, I don't have the details of her report, so I don't know for certain how she reached her conclusions. I agree that it would help to be able to see it and follow her lines of reasoning. Why doesn't somebody just find her and ask her?

I can't see any reason for her to deliberately falsify her conclusions - it doesn't seem to make much sense. Who would gain from that? Does anyone have any ideas?

On the premise that another expert might be employed to have another look - yes, you could do that, there are quite a lot of them about. I'm not sure I think it would make very much difference here though, even if you had the professional opinions of 10 experts in the field.

Say I went out and asked 10 professionals to give me their professional view and, I don't know, 8 of them said - 'they're not the same'? Would people still argue that professionals don't know what they're talking about? I suspect so. And if those 8 said ' Yes, I think they are the same'? Whilst the believers would be vindicated, the doubters would not, so would they then say the same?

Ben writes:

Most people here would consider themselves experts in their own professions with good reason, and I'm sure they would take considerable exception to the suggestion that anyone can do their job.

Maybe some of them would, yes. Watch out, or I might just go and tell them...Now, you wouldn't want a bunch of angry document examiners after you, would you? (Sam, I'm talking to you!)

On the other hand, I think most of them would probably laugh.

[truebluedub]

She's not actually hard to find: http://www.expertsearch.co.uk/cgi-bin/find_expert?2592

Chris Lowe

[Ben]

A very good summation of the facts, Crystal.

Some will, some won´t and some will lean in over that donkey and claim that it´s still breathing.

That's no way to speak about Toppy, Fisherman. He plays the violin and likes ice-skating, don't you know?

[Crystal]

Well there you are then, Chris, we can just ask her, can't we?

[Crystal]

Ooh, I don't know, though. She's only got a Bsc. Maybe we shouldn't trust her word? (if we knew what it was, that is)

[Ben]

I've contacted Ms. Iremonger, and eagerly await a response.

All the best,
Ben

[Crystal]

Well Done, Ben - although whether she'll be inclined to render any report she may still have in her keeping to a pack of baying wolves is another matter entirely. Then again, maybe she'll be quite happy to share - I can't wait to find out1

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"I've contacted Ms. Iremonger, and eagerly await a response."

...and so have I! And since we have one representant for each side in this issue, let´s refrain from bombarding miss Iremonger any further!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ben writes, about Toppy:

"He plays the violin and likes ice-skating"

Sounds like a difficult combination to me...!

Best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Thanks, Crystal.

I understand she's a rather elderly lady now, so for that reason and many others, I've avoided mention of the baying wolves!