Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[DVV]

One point about the "Royal Conspiracy" or the idea as Toppy was supposed to have suggested that the Whitechapel murders were the work of someone(s) of the highest level. This smacks to me of residue left over from Astrakhan Man, as a tale that grew in it's telling over time. Reginald being Hutch's son, though some would have it so.
Mike

Hi Mike,
agreed, of course. If Toppy turned out to be the witness, that's most probably what happened.
However, what strikes me with Reg's story, is that there is nothing of which we can say: "Yes, that sounds true. This detail could well indicate that we have found our guy."
In oral history, exageration, legend, distorsion, etc, are often, if not always, mixed with seeds of truth.
That's not the case at all with Toppy and Reg, though Toppy would have had much to say about his Ripper scare's memories.

Amitiés,
David

edit: and I'd be VERY curious to have the supposed Toppy's picture analyzed and dated. It seems impossible to me for it to have been taken in the 20's or 30's... In which case we'd soon be on another "trail of the forgers".

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

Ben the point I was getting at is that the census to my mind had to be the most obvious way to disappear.

Granted, but why disappear? Other serial killers have proved perfectly capable of hiding in plain sight without having recourse to concealing their identities or living permanently on the run. Given the lack of evidence that Hutchinson was ever considered a suspect, there's even less reason to suppose that he'd conceal his identity. If he was asked at some later date if he was the same Hutchinson who gave the statement, he'd need only reply in the affirmative. "Yep, that was me. Pity my description never led to any capture, eh? That dastardly Astrakhan man simply vanished into the fog, didn't he? Tsk tsk".

Denis Rader didn't run away and hide. He simply continuted his veneer of suburban family man and church-goer. He wasn't concealing his identity because he had a very good idea that nobody suspected him for a moment.

Best regards,
Ben

[The Good Michael]

If he was asked at some later date if he was the same Hutchinson who gave the statement, he'd need only reply in the affirmative. "Yep, that was me. Pity my description never led to any capture, eh? That dastardly Astrakhan man simply vanished into the fog, didn't he? Tsk tsk".

Ben,

My guess is that this very thing happened on several occasions. He was never a suspect because the police had absolutely no reason to suspect him. We may want to follow suit on that. Toppy, though perhaps a bit of a conniver in his youth, turned out to be not such a bad guy later on apparently, according to his son.

Cheers,

Mike

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

He was never a suspect because the police had absolutely no reason to suspect him. We may want to follow suit on that

He may not have appeared suspicious to an 1888 police force with no experience of serial killers, but from a modern perspective, there is ample reason to suspect him. The other alternative is that they did suspect him, briefly, but lacked the evidence to rule him in or out. But that's a done-to-death discussion for another time. As for Toppy, unfortunately we only have his son's character reference, which is bound to be somewhat biased.

Ben

[DVV]

Mike,
I'd really like to know if Toppy has explained to his son why he did wait until Monday evening to make his testimony.
Why he did not follow the suspect on Sunday morning, or warned a constable.
And where was he living in 1885-6, the supposed time he first met with Kelly...

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

Mike,
I'd really like to know if Toppy has explained to his son why he did wait until Monday evening to make his testimony.
Why he did not follow the suspect on Sunday morning, or warned a constable.
And where was he living in 1885-6, the supposed time he first met with Kelly...

David,

My guess is that it was just good enough that dad told him he saw the killer and that he gave testimony to that effect. The waiting either was not told to him, or else it was easily explained away by a dad whose son trusted and believed in him. I think it would be unquestioned by Reg. I doubt I would have asked questions of my dad. I remember many stories my father told me about the Korean War. I never doubted, so there was no reason to question.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

One point about the "Royal Conspiracy" or the idea as Toppy was supposed to have suggested that the Whitechapel murders were the work of someone(s) of the highest level. This smacks to me of residue left over from Astrakhan Man, as a tale that grew in it's telling over time. Much like I have suggested that Hutch's story after 3 days of mulling it over and talking to his mates, must have grown. This idea does not negate the plausibility of Reginald being Hutch's son, though some would have it so.
Mike

Mike,
point already taken about the "royal conspiracy" (if, etc), but I'm afraid it doesn't work when it goes to Astrakhan.
The gap is too short (with a last sighting on Sunday...), and if Toppy really wanted to help the police, as he told his son...

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

David,

My guess is that it was just good enough that dad told him he saw the killer and that he gave testimony to that effect. The waiting either was not told to him, or else it was easily explained away by a dad whose son trusted and believed in him. I think it would be unquestioned by Reg. I doubt I would have asked questions of my dad. I remember many stories my father told me about the Korean War. I never doubted, so there was no reason to question.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,
it's not about doubting. It's about asking questions, it's about wanting to have more details.
I certainly would have been more curious than Reg, personally.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

Mike,
it's not about doubting. It's about asking questions, it's about wanting to have more details.
I certainly would have been more curious than Reg, personally.

David,

There's a big difference between and interested, educated man and a doting, possibly uneducated son. I too, would have many questions for my father if he were alive today.

Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

Certainly Mike,
but Jack the Ripper has always entertained the public at large.
Penny dreadful, my friend.

Amitiés,
David

[perrymason]

Hi Mike,
Granted, but why disappear? Other serial killers have proved perfectly capable of hiding in plain sight without having recourse to concealing their identities or living permanently on the run. Given the lack of evidence that Hutchinson was ever considered a suspect, there's even less reason to suppose that he'd conceal his identity. If he was asked at some later date if he was the same Hutchinson who gave the statement, he'd need only reply in the affirmative. "Yep, that was me. Pity my description never led to any capture, eh? That dastardly Astrakhan man simply vanished into the fog, didn't he? Tsk tsk".

Denis Rader didn't run away and hide. He simply continuted his veneer of suburban family man and church-goer. He wasn't concealing his identity because he had a very good idea that nobody suspected him for a moment.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,

The thing is ...Denis Rader kept right on killing people until his arrest. We dont know that Jack killed anyone after Mary.

If he has an opportunity, instead of providing an accurate name and details at the later census,.. and he was actually the Ripper as well as a witness, and hadnt killed since,why wouldnt he change his name?

That little factoid is critical with Toppy....do serial killers just stop on their own in reality? My understanding is they dont very often. So we would have to consider the man as Mike points out as a decent sort by some accounts in later life was the Ripper and likely still killing if free and healthy.

All the best Ben.

[Ben]

Hi David,

According to Reg, Toppy "knew more than he told though, but he kept it close to his chest." He speculates that his father was paid to keep quiet about what he "really knew".

"Now I can see that he knew all along that the man he saw actually was Churchill, but he didn't want to come straight out with it"

[cappuccina]

Hi Perry...

Rader did take a significantly long "break" from his murderous activities...

[Ben]

The thing is ...Denis Rader kept right on killing people until his arrest.

Hardly, Mike.

He stopped killing people for a great many years. We don't know if Jack stopped after Kelly.

and he was actually the Ripper as well as a witness, and hadnt killed since,why wouldnt he change his name?

For the same reason Denis Rader didn't, most probably. In the Toppy-as-killer scenarion, he would have known that he was perceived, for the most part, as a family man whose involvement in the ripper saga extended only - in the mind's of the country's population - to being the star witness who fizzled out after a while.

Do serial killers stop on their own, in reality? Yes, of course they do. I don't recall this ever being in dispute, and whoever Jack the Ripper was, we don't have enough evidence to assert when or how he stopped. Being perceived as a "decent sort" is certainly not a point against an hypothetical Toppy-as-murderer, as many other serial killers were thus perceievd prior to capture.

Not that I believe for a moment that Toppy was the witness, let alone a killer.

Best regards,
Ben

Edits to earlier post: "the stronger the argument (against) suggesting that (he) radically altered his consistent signature at another point in time."

[DVV]

Hi David,

According to Reg, Toppy "knew more than he told though, but he kept it close to his chest." He speculates that his father was paid to keep quiet about what he "really knew".

"Now I can see that he knew all along that the man he saw actually was Churchill, but he didn't want to come straight out with it"

I see, Ben.
It's about: "Je sais tout mais je dirai rien."
A sphinx, for sure.

Amitiés,
David

edit: note the striking discrepancy between Toppy-the-Sphinx and Hutch-the-meticulous witness, with his hawkeye and incredible visual memory.

edit 2: obviously Reg's story argues strongly against Toppy as the witness, far more, in my opinion, than the signatures could argue in his favour.