Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[Ben]

Thanks, Gareth.

I think Bob's point was that the inclusion of middle initials were necessary for police statements in particular. I know 'eff all about correct protocol myself.

All the best,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

By coincidence, it turns out that Toppy's 1911 home, in Tuscan Street, was just under a mile from George the Ticker-Nicker's home in Cottage Grove, Bow. A small world, is Planet Hutch...

[richardnunweek]

Hello Guys,
Well, well well, things have progressed in the last twenty four hours, a big thanks to Debra, for giving us all a sample of Toppings signature, I am of course the most bias person on this subject on Casebook, so I can only say thanks for giving members a chance to make up their own minds, and not dismissing such a suggestion out of hand.
I must admit the age of Gwt does surprise me, also Debra insisting that no marriage in 1895 took place also, I will not offer excuses for that, and I cannot explain it.
I have always had the opinion that George William topping Hutchinson was born on 1/10/1866. infact i will have to check that when i finished this post.
Ben.
I do not expect you to be convinced, and fair play to you, bUT thanks for at least not dismissing the possibility completely.
Sam.
I can only agree.
Regard Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Just checked, George William Topping Hutchinson was born on the ist october 1866, [ which obviously is Regs father] there is no doubt on that , registered in the last quarter oct-dec that year [lambeth]
So Debra something is either wrong with the age on the 1911 census, or the birth records.
Best Regards
Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi,
Just checked, George William Topping Hutchinson was born on the ist october 1866, [ which obviously is Regs father] there is no doubt on that , registered in the last quarter oct-dec that year [lambeth]
So Debra something is either wrong with the age on the 1911 census, or the birth records.
Best Regards
Richard.

Hi Richard,
This is a point that several people have laboured about with you in past threads (particularly with the Barnett family) and there was something I was hoping you may come to realise now. The only really reliable record a person had in that era was a birth certificate as this had to be registered within weeks of a birth. Ages on a census entry, place of birth, # of years married, age at death are all subject to errors, through faulty memory or whatever.
I have no problems with GWTH's inormation being out from what is known, it's definitely the same guy, perhaps this makes you think twice about querying other records from now on on such a basis?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
Just to clarify, I trust you then accept that Gwth was born in 1866, and although his age is given wrong in the 1911 census aged 41 years, also apparently his marriage, these are down to some kind of loss of memory, or mistake.
I do not intentionaly go out of my way to annoy members , I accept your reasoning , the very fact that it is not in dispute that George William Topping, was aged 22 years at the time of the Whitechapel murders, and that his signature has major comparisons with the witness named as Hutchinson is my appertizer.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,
Just to clarify, I trust you then accept that Gwth was born in 1866, and although his age is given wrong in the 1911 census aged 41 years, also apparently his marriage, these are down to some kind of loss of memory, or mistake.
I do not intentionaly go out of my way to annoy members , I accept your reasoning , the very fact that it is not in dispute that George William Topping, was aged 22 years at the time of the Whitechapel murders, and that his signature has major comparisons with the witness named as Hutchinson is my appertizer.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,
I am assuming that your date of birth for GWTH comes from his known and researched birth registration (I haven't ever looked into it myself) so yes, on this proviso, I do accept he was born in 1866 and that his age, # of years married etc. are in error due to faulty memory, just like the age of death on Daniel Barnett's death certificate, brought to your attention by MM and heavily disputed by you.
That's all I wanted to covey to you.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
Yes it is a official registration, regarding the Barnett family, and their authenticity to Ripper fame, I will simply say, all is not proven to the identity of the Joseph Barnett that was common law to MJK.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

Handwriting

Dear Sam,

Close but no cigar!

Most children of that age were taught using a standard copybook so the handwriting will appear similar in many cases. This is most notable in capital letters, these being at the beginning of sentences were larger and more care was taken over these letters than any others.

This is why you will find similarities mainly in capital letters. However once the handwriting is under way it becomes more fluid and personal traits creep in.

In your sample if you look at the capital G and the capital H you will see what I mean. They are the most similar letters in the two examples.

If you look at the other letters you will see that they are now quite dissimilar.

The letter r is very different as is the letter t . The horizontal on the letter t is very interesting. In the statement signature it is a positive flourish, extending from the t right down to the n. In the census the cross bar is missing on the first occasion and very hesitant on the second only making is as far as starting the letter h in Lambeth.

If you look at the capital H in the census example the tail from the H flows into making the top of the u. In the statement H the flourish completes the letter H and then carries on to make the bottom of the u.

I would say that it is certainly very exciting but another false start – and believe you me no-one wants to find him more than me!

[Brenda]

I don't buy the argument that all children learned to write their capital letters the same way. If you look on page 2 of this thread, you will see a fine example of a handful of George Hutchinsons signing their names in a handful of different ways. You can't count on a person signing their name the exact same way every time, either. Even I don't do that. The similarities I see in these signatures is more than enough to warrant a serious analysis by a handwriting expert. I wonder how hideously expensive something like that would be?

[richardnunweek]

Hi Bob,
And there I was [ just for a moment] believing that your good self might appear in the positive camp, but alas no, although you did pen the words 'certainly very exiting' so there is still hope.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Thank you Brenda,
What you state is correct , i have copies of my signature from way back, and although similar they vary in strokes, it proberly boils down to ones mood when sighning , is one apprehensive, or calm etc.
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

The similarities I see in these signatures is more than enough to warrant a serious analysis by a handwriting expert

It's been done already, Brenda.

Bob will be able to fill you in better on the details, but Sue Iremonger compared Toppy's signature on his marriage certificate with those appended to the "witness" statement, and concluded that they were penned by different people. To be fair, the observation was not that "all children learned to write their capital letters the same way", but "Most children of that age were taught using a standard copybook so the handwriting will appear similar in many cases"

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben,
Its already been done.
Two suggestions spring to mind.
a] a second opinion
b] showing both the wedding certificate, and the 1911 census handwriting.
lets not forget that those two samples were some 16years apart, and no one here would suggest that signatures are identical every time.
Downful.
The cost, and that kind of analyse is not exactly Lie detector accuracy, it is a kind of tarot reading initially.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

Hello Ben,
Its already been done.
Two suggestions spring to mind.
a] a second opinion
b] showing both the wedding certificate, and the 1911 census handwriting.
lets not forget that those two samples were some 16years apart, and no one here would suggest that signatures are identical every time.
Downful.
The cost, and that kind of analyse is not exactly Lie detector accuracy, it is a kind of tarot reading initially.
Regards Richard.

Easier said than done though I think, Richard. Someone would have to gain access to the original marriage register where GWTH's signature appears on the wedding entry and then get permission to photograph it so they could post it here for comparison, and even then we would still get the same differences of opinion as most of us here are amateurs when it comes to things like this. They look similar to the untrained eye, and that's what most of us are looking with.