Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

It is extremely doubtful that Topping or Reginald ever read the Wheeling Register, let alone heard of it

.

I agree.
My point was that The Wheeling Register got the sum of money it quoted
from somewhere, and this could have been a figure being bandied around the area of Whitechapel at the time -so Toppy could have been aware of it.

Melvyn Fairclough was researching his book, and he could have had access to the Wheeling Register and 'suggested' the sum to Reg.

The fact that the sum of money is fictitious, but Reg mentioned the exact same sum points to The Wheeling Register being the source.

[lynn cates]

A picture is worth a Millen words.

Hello Ruby.

"you appear to believe that Israel Schwartz made up his witness story in the Stride murder."

Well, I don't think HE did it, but I think lads like Wess and Diemshitz did.

"The 'Family Recollections' of Nathan Shine's descendants (the Sassanie family ??) report a garbled version of Schwartz's story, with embellishments (which mean that it couldn't be true).

If you don't believe in Schwartz, then you can't believe in Shine"

Fine by me.

"-yet the same mechanisms are at work in his 'story' as in Hutchinson's.'"

I don't understand. Toppy, er Hutch's story has always struck me as a bit off. My main problem was his spending 45 minutes looking up the court. Too, his description was a bit too precise for my taste--that is, until I saw the police description of Sir Edward's spy, Francis Millen. A perfect match for A-man. Look at his picture and description.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Lechmere
I find it surprising you find Hutch's statement of knowing MK for several years (because she moved alot) as the least beleiveable. I have no problem with that.

What else to Hutch's story do you find unbeleiveable?

Hutchinson said he had known Kelly "about 3 years".
Kelly's whereabouts since that time is not known except through what Elizabeth Phoenix told the press.
That, Kelly had lived at her brother-in-law's house (about 3 years ago) in Breezers Hill, off the Ratcliff Highway, down by the London Docks.
That about 2 years ago Kelly left Breezers Hill and settled around Commercial Rd, and "offered her wares" in Aldgate.
That being the case, it is not "unbelievable" that Hutchinson, if also resident in the area (and IF labouring at the Docks?), might have known Kelly.
Given the limited variety of her kind, Kelly seems to have had a memorable appearance.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

...I'm pretty certain that I read somewhere on Casebook (possibly in the archives ?), that it was also claimed that Packer had received the exact same sum. He surely didn't, so this points to an 'urban myth' circulating at the time amongst very poor people.

If the police had not been so reluctant to offer rewards then we might have treated these 'payment' myths with a degree of credibility. As it sits, we know the police were absolutely against offering payment for information or for citizens assistance, I think we can rest assured no money changed hands.
But the Press, thats a different story...

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

Abbey Normal
I’m not sure about the whole A-man thing and I am not at all sure that he was in Dorset Street. I don’t profess to be certain.
I am pretty certain he wasn’t guilty of anything more than over exaggerating and conning the police out off for a few quid.

Also I don’t think he was the wideawake man as the press and the police at the time didn’t make the connection – and the connection was there to be made... if they were connected. It is a bit like the Miller’s Court door lock ‘riddle’.

These things are mysteries and are discussed at length now but clearly were not then. I suspect that in both cases there was a simple and obvious explanation that wasn’t worth mentioning.
In other words it was known that Hutchinson wasn’t the wideawake man due to some, probably then obvious factor of which we are unaware, and the door was locked by some mechanism of which we are unaware but was also obvious at the time.

Some decisions made at the time and pieces of evidence merit the critical examination, but sometimes I think there is a tendency today to pour over little details, with attempts made to bestow significance on things which must have been clear at the time.

Rubyretro
The difference is the signatures seem to match and his father’s name was George Hutchinson and no other suitable George Hutchinson has been produced - although you could argue that Hutchinson provided a false name.
However claiming that Toppy’s remarks are not evidence just because you think they are untrue is somewhat ludicrous.

[Rubyretro]

Hello Richard and Michael. Wish I could add something to your posts. Unfortunately I can't. You have said it all.

Cheers.
LC

reply to Lynn Cates : you appear to believe that Israel Schwartz made up his witness story in the Stride murder.

The 'Family Recollections' of Nathan Shine's descendants (the Sassanie family ??) report a garbled version of Schwartz's story, with embellishments (which mean that it couldn't be true).

If you don't believe in Schwartz, then you can't believe in Shine -yet the same mechanisms are at work in his 'story' as in Hutchinson's.

Please explain to me the difference.

[The Good Michael]

It is extremely doubtful that Topping or Reginald ever read the Wheeling Register, let alone heard of it. Reg was telling his side of things long before there was internet access to any newspapers. Who could logically think that he went to newspaper offices to find articles to create a story about his father? Who coudl logically think that Topping went around searching for newspaper articles so that he coudl take credit for being a different George Hutchinson? If he did this, then he forged signatures and the jig's up.


Mike

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=richardnunweek;188879]Hi,

Topping was 22 years old in 1888, only a couple of years younger the Mary Kelly, we tend to forget how young she was, and I can see no reason why Hutch was not familiar with her.

Youth has absolutely nothing to do with the question whatsoever. I certainly think that Hutch was familiar with Mary Kelly, even if he wasn't Toppy.

As for the hundred shillings payment... The Wheeling article mentioned a figure of approx that amount in 1888 , Gossip? remembered by a hoaxer named Topping many years later, as it has been stated by some .
Do we honestly believe that?

It could be -if the source of the Wheeling article was a story circulating in the East End at the time.
On the other hand, Fairclough was doing research for his book, and he could have found the Wheeling article and 'suggested' the sum to Reg.
It cannot be entirely discounted that either Toppy or Reg did read the article
-although highly unlikely (it is incredible how many people with 'false reincarnation fantasies' have been proved to have unwittingly gleaned their
details from very obscure sources -the proof being the identical 'mistakes' they make. The people also had conciously 'read up' -although they denied it- once they accepted the 'fantasy' as real).

Believe that Topping, adopted the real George Hutchinson's identity, researched his statement, remembered the payment from a rare [ non UK edition] article, all that for the ability to spin a yarn down the local?

I suggested 6 (there are probably more) alternative theories. If the sum of money was a widely circulating gossip of the time, then it would take no effort to know it.

Its not only son Reg's account, but Toppings tale was remembered by other members of the family including Toppings brother , remember J D Hutchinson's post on casebook a few years back?.

I cannot comment on that, not having read the posts. I can only remark that the Toppy/witness story is not entirely unique. There is also the surely bogus witness story of Nathan Shine in the Stride murder. Although the Shine story is also demonstrably false, his descendants appear to believe it.

[Abby Normal]

All, Topping was 22 at the time, not 19. Young, but not a child.

Mike

Hi Good Michael and Lechmere

Thanks for correcting me. I agree age 22 is not too young for any of the things I mentioned (knowing prostitutes, living in a lodging house, trips to Romford).

Lechmere
I find it surprising you find Hutch's statement of knowing MK for several years (because she moved alot) as the least beleiveable. I have no problem with that.

What else to Hutch's story do you find unbeleiveable?

[Rubyretro]

Rubyretro –

the thing is Reg had a dad called George Hutchinson, and he claimed this dad was THE George Hutchinson and added two details (the toff and the money) which corroborate it. He did not make an outrageous claim such as that he was born on Mars.
That is why it should be regarded as evidence

.

It cannot be considered as 'evidence'.

'The toff and the money' cannot 'corroborate' anything, because both bits of
information were known/printed in the Press prior to Toppy/Reg/Fairclough
citing them.

Corroboration would have to be something along the lines of Reg claiming
that his father had described A Man as having a huge hairy wart on the end of his nose, and it now (that is after Fairclough's research was finished) beeing discovered, beyond doubt, that Hutchinson had described A Man as having a huge hairy wart on the end of his nose, but that Police had withheld
this information at the time.

Even then, the corroboration would not be 100 % certain, as we could not prove that the information had not appeared in some obscure forgotten paper, or was not known to locals at the time.

I don't believe that the sum of money mentioned being the same as the Wheeling Register, is a coincidence :
it shows that 'the source' was either the same source as the Wheeling Register (probably local gossip), or that it was the Wheeling Register itself -in which case it is a hint that Fairclough was probably the person who dug it up.

I'm pretty certain that I read somewhere on Casebook (possibly in the archives ?), that it was also claimed that Packer had received the exact same sum. He surely didn't, so this points to an 'urban myth' circulating at the time amongst very poor people.

[The Good Michael]

Hello Richard and Michael. Wish I could add something to your posts. Unfortunately I can't. You have said it all.

Lynn,

Perhaps 2 loud mouthed ne-er-do-wells are sufficient in this case

Mike

[lynn cates]

additions

Hello Richard and Michael. Wish I could add something to your posts. Unfortunately I can't. You have said it all.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Richard,

and it isn't just the story. It's:

George
East End
No other George
Age
The Story
Family recollections
Signatures
Logic

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Topping was 22 years old in 1888, only a couple of years younger the Mary Kelly, we tend to forget how young she was, and I can see no reason why Hutch was not familiar with her.
As for the hundred shillings payment... The Wheeling article mentioned a figure of approx that amount in 1888 , Gossip? remembered by a hoaxer named Topping many years later, as it has been stated by some .
Do we honestly believe that?
Believe that Topping, adopted the real George Hutchinson's identity, researched his statement, remembered the payment from a rare [ non UK edition] article, all that for the ability to spin a yarn down the local?
Its not only son Reg's account, but Toppings tale was remembered by other members of the family including Toppings brother , remember J D Hutchinson's post on casebook a few years back?.
Please lets not be so negative..
Regards Richard.

[Fleetwood Mac]

All, Topping was 22 at the time, not 19. Young, but not a child.

Mike

Something that may point away from Topping is the 'military appearance' comment.

Someone at 22 having a military appearance? I would assume middle aged at least to hone the straight back, disciplined, rigid gait that may constitute a 'military appearance'.

Anyway, can anyone point me in the direction of these signatures. I've been looking around for the boards for them but no luck.

Cheers.