Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[The Good Michael]

Fish,

How long did this process of Hutchinson passing surly man, then meeting Kelly, Kelly leaving him in the other direction, meeting another man, proceeding to the corner and then entering Miller's Court; how long did it take. We know it was 3 minutes that Hutchinson said he waited while they were standing there speaking, but what about the whole process from beginning to end? Was it 20 minutes? Was it 10? Let's say 12-18 minutes for argument's sake. It began at... Hutch says about 2. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt that he kind of knew what time it was. That's a big benefit, but I'm feeling generous.

And let's say 'about' means anything from 1:45 - 2:15 (again being kind). This gives us a window of time from between 1:57 - 2:33 for the time that Kelly and Surly walked into the Court. Lewis saw her Mr. Villainous at perhaps 2:30. This is a tight fit for two couples, men looking very similar, and two hatless women apparently looking for their 'company'.

It's in my ballpark, anyway.

Mike

[Fisherman]

Hi Mike!

My estimation would be around a quarter of an hour, so I pretty much agree with you on that score. But the surrounding information and the clothing issue makes me think that the two men were not one and the same.
Can I totally exclude it? No, that I canŽt. But the appeal is not there in my eyes. But youŽll be better off using your own!

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fish,

I agree. Detailed descriptions of maybe 3 articles of clothing don't match. I call that acceptable variance if all other things are close and they are in the exact same spot within a few minutes of each other. And it doesn't matter if you think it is sooth. What matters is that rational people can see it as a possibility.
Cheers,

Mike

[DVV]

One problem here is that Lewis didn't know Kelly.
Another is that nobody sems to have seen Kelly near the Ringers at around 2.00 that night, although the police did try their best to ascertain her whereabouts.

[Fisherman]

David:

"nobody sems to have seen Kelly near the Ringers at around 2.00 that night, although the police did try their best to ascertain her whereabouts."

Guess why, David, guess why ...

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

I've well understood that Mike's hypothesis doesn't help yours, my friend.

All the best

[Rubyretro]

I've well understood that Mike's hypothesis doesn't help yours, my friend.

All the best

Too true, David !

We should leave them too it !!-they'll sink each other !

[The Good Michael]

Answers: Either it was the wrong night, or it was closer to 2:30.

To david: Of course Lewis didn't know Kelly or she'd have said, "Kelly was with the creepy guy I saw at 2:30." Duh.

Mike

[DVV]

To david: Of course Lewis didn't know Kelly or she'd have said, "Kelly was with the creepy guy I saw at 2:30." Duh.

Mike

Don't get me wrong, Mike : I know that you know that Lewis didn't know Kelly.
My point is : it makes the identification of the man seen by Lewis with Astrakhan Man even more flimsy.

[The Good Michael]

David,

I don't follow that logic. Lewis saw a man and Toppy saw a similar man, with some variation of clothing. Toppy saw Kelly and Lewis saw a hatless prostitute type. Lewis may have seen Kelly, but how would she know?

[DVV]

I don't follow that logic.

I'm sure you could.

Lewis saw a man

Ok.

and Toppy saw a similar man

No, not a "similar" man, just a "Gentleman" about 40, whereas Hutch's Astrakhan Man looks more like the villain in a cheap novel.

Lewis may have seen Kelly, but how would she know?

Of course she wouldn't know, and you did make no mistake about that. But once again, nobody has seen Kelly there that night, although the police did their best to ascertain her whereabouts.

All in all, your hypothesis is possible, yes, but very remotely possible.

[The Good Michael]

David,

Nobody saw her there at 2 AM. Did anybody mention seeing Hutchinson? How about Lewis? Nobody saw anybody because no one cared and most of the people were sh!t-faced. What about at 2:30? Was anyone asked about 2:30 specifically?

Mike

David, aren't the ages of 35 and 40 similar? Isn't a dark jacket and a dark short coat similar? Isn't small and 5'6" similar? Isn't Black mustache and slight mustache (probabaly black) similar? Surly and frightenling are similar as well.

[DVV]

Once again, my guess is that the police tried their best.

Hutch said he saw the A-Man at about 2.00, and Lewis said she saw "a gentleman" at about 2.30.

In my opinion that's not enough to assume they were one and the same person. It's barely a very vague possibility (for those who believe in Hutch's statement).

[DVV]

David, aren't the ages of 35 and 40 similar? Isn't a dark jacket and a dark short coat similar? Isn't small and 5'6" similar? Isn't Black mustache and slight mustache (probabaly black) similar? Surly and frightenling are similar as well.

That's right, Mike, but as you very well know, Hawaian shirts were not as common as moustaches in 1888, and many people are said to have frightened women during the ripper scare.

[The Good Michael]

That's only because Hawaii was not yet a state, and the marketeers hadn't come in yet to exploit floral patterns. Is that kind of what you were looking for?

Mike