Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Rubyretro]

.

I suspect he never mentioned Kelly's clothing for the same reason - he didn't know what she was wearing before she retired for the night.

All the best,
Ben[/QUOTE]

perfect !

[Roy Corduroy]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

[Abby Normal]

Abbey..

-I don't think that Blotchy was the killer at all : the Ripper's MO was to strike fast and in silence -not to sit about drinking and singing and being observed by the neighbours. The carroty 'blotchy' physique is pretty individual , too.
Re: Harry's thread...I think that Blotchy was happy to look Mrs Cox full in the face...not the Ripper's style..

-So that would mean that either Mary went out again after Blotchy (but I've already explained why I think that she didn't) or the Ripper stalked her home and waited until Blotchy left... (a 'loiterer' anyone ?).

I agree with Garry that Hutchinson certainly didn't speak to Mary that
night...at least in the immediate hours before the murder : that 'spreeish' is a
lovely example of 'sitting on the fence' and not giving an opinion one way or the other..[/QUOTE]

Hi Ruby
Good point about Blotchy. and the "spreeish" hedge on Hutch's part.

However, on Blotchy, If JtR was getting "better" at what he did and along with his escalations, perhaps he was honing his MO and started to realize that he could really live out his fantasy to the fullest if he could find a women with her own place. So perhaps he started to try to be more selective in his target. And since he knew he was in a private situation with MK in her room and thinking the chance of being interupted was slim-prolonged the pre attack time (and the mutilation time). perhaps as serial killers do, he was getting cockier, and taking more chances-thinking he could get awy with more. and/or getting more careless.
And of course, other than Hutch, he was the last person seen with MK.

That being said, I think he probably was not JtR. After his night of fun with MK he probably took off around 3 ish.

[Abby Normal]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

Hi Roy
Probably George Hutcninson. I think giving a fake name(if he was MK's murderer) to police would be too risky. It would be easier to prove/disprove this than other lies and would indicate a much more nefarious motive.

And If Hutch was just liar but not a murderer then really no reason to give fake name either.

[The Good Michael]

Someone please point me to a newspaper article that says Hutchinson gave a statement after the inquest. I know we've taken that for granted, and it does make sense the way it's been peddled, but there are several newspapers that say that Hutchinson gave his account at the inquest. So, it seems possible that he did give a statement to Abberline and then testified.

Here are some examples:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/atchison_daily_globe/881114.html

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_star/881114.html

Many articles say that Hutchinson gave his account to a reporter which matched with what he gave the police. I haven't seen any that say the inquest closed, and then HUtchinson ran in to clear himself.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

I think that you are right on this:

as serial killers do, he was getting cockier, and taking more chances-thinking he could get awy with more. and/or getting more careless.

[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that he would have 'prolonged the attack time' -(and this is only personal -I don't know), because 'Jack" doesn't seem to have been a
person enjoying the torturing and domination of his victims -but seems to have wanted to transform them into dehumanised bits of meat as quickly as possible. It's the mutilation that he enjoyed.

Given the extent of mutilation to Mary's face, I can't imagine 'Jack' sitting around listening to Mary warbling 'Violets'..

[Rubyretro]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

Roy -I think that the most likely candidate for Jack the Ripper, would surely be who Ben terms 'Mr Joe Average'.

Of all the 'Mr Joe Averages' in London at the time, one has stepped forward,
out of the shadows, to place himself at the last crime scene with a convoluted **** n' Bull story.

His presence at the crime scene would appear to be supported by an idependant witness.

Effectively most of which 'George Hutchinson' recounted was probably a lie
-but there are maybe some starting points to find the real person ? (not Toppy !).

[Abby Normal]

I think that you are right on this:

I don't believe that he would have 'prolonged the attack time' -(and this is only personal -I don't know), because 'Jack" doesn't seem to have been a
person enjoying the torturing and domination of his victims -but seems to have wanted to transform them into dehumanised bits of meat as quickly as possible. It's the mutilation that he enjoyed.

Given the extent of mutilation to Mary's face, I can't imagine 'Jack' sitting around listening to Mary warbling 'Violets'..[/QUOTE]

Hi Ruby

Good point. And I agree its the mutilation thats the thing.

But remember, this is the first time he was in total privacy with his victim. I think he enjoyed the hunt-perhaps he was toying with his prey (if it was Blotchy)- pro longing his pre attack exitement (but as you say nothing to do with torture and domination).

But your probably right-JtR I think probably would have attacked Mary alot sooner once he had her alone in the room.

[DVV]

-but there are maybe some starting points to find the real person ? (not Toppy !).

According to Venturney, Fleming used to give money to Kelly.
Hutch said to Abberline that he had occasionally given Kelly a few shillings.

In 1888, Fleming would have known Kelly for about 3 years.
Hutch said he knew Kelly for about 3 years.

Fleming dossed in the VH.
So did Hutch.

My conclusion is that Fleming could well be the real McCoy.

[The Good Michael]

David,

So did William Turner.

Mike

[DVV]

Believe it or not, Mike, but my points are valid.

[The Good Michael]

David,

Yes they are, but just so you remember that Fleming and Hutchinson are different men. One was a nutcase, the other a young man in pre-plumber stage. That you can bank on.

Mike

[DVV]

Mike, the only plumber I trust is my friend Pasquali. We've played rugby together.

[The Good Michael]

What about the Watergate Plumbers? They almost kept a secret.

[Lechmere]

Habitual drinkers often get drunk and sober up quickly. I believe such imbibers are known as topers. Kelly may have been a toper.
This is not to be confused with Toppy.

Mr Ben - do you think that there would be scant trade for a prostitute after 3am? I am interested in your opinion on this matter.

I find it difficult to reconcile Hutchinson’s loitering outside Miller’s Court with Hutchinson waiting for Blotchy to leave – before going in either hoping to kill or to kip.
Blotchy went in before midnight. If Hutchinson was there at 2.30 am are you suggesting he noticed Kelly going in with Blotchy at midnight? This probably discounts the possibility that he went to Romford or if he did he got back much earlier than he said. Would he then have loitered around knowing he would miss the Victoria Home curfew?
If he got there later (i.e. at 2 ish) and didn’t witness Blotchy with Kelly, then how would he have known whether Kelly was alone in her lodgings? If he was a stalker and broke in he could have found another bloke in there. Barnett could have been back there for all he knew.
This is another weakness in the Hutchinson case. If Kelly did not come back out after she was seen with Blotchy, then you have to assume Hutchinson saw Blotchy leave. 13 Miller’s Court seems to have fallen silent before 1 am. This suggests that Hutchinson was loitering a lot earlier than 2 am – if he was the person seen by Lewis at 2.30 am.
Or did he knock on Kelly’s door on the off chance? That would have been a risk. There could have been a bloke in there or she may have been spark out.
Or perhaps Blotchy went in at midnight and left at 3am and was seen by Hutchinson leaving. If so when did Hutchinson began his vigil? Surely not at midnight? Other people were in and out and didn’t report a loiterer at an earlier hour, although such a negative does not prove no one was about. That would mean he was lurking outside a quiet address wondering what was inside when luckily Blotchy emerges, so telling him that the coast was clear.
None of it really fits.
I am sure she was picked up in the street and took her killer back there.

I am not sure whether Hutchinson was there at all that night. I believe she was certainly spotted with Blotchy. After that she could have gone out at any time in the morning to find her last client.
She was supposedly behind in her rent and may have been trying to get some money together.

DVV
Venturney said someone called Joe (who may or may not have been Flemming) gave Kelly money (but this may have been a mix up with Barnett).
Flemming may have lived at the Victoria Home a year after the murders