Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Lechmere]

The only relevance is (I think) that it casts doubt on the identification of Lewis's wideawake man and Hutchinson. It isn't really a Toppy issue I would suggest.

Incidentally I am confident in my knowledge of the Victorian army so as not to be in the least desperate about defining what was and what wasn't a 'military appearance'.

But often on here the arguments take a ludicrous turn.
For example the 'accusation' that I had said there were no apprentices, when I clearly hadn't or the suggestion that I said most plumbers were bodgers, when I clearly hadn't or the suggestion that I said Toppy could have been a bodger when I clearly hadn't etc.

[Ben]

“I specifically spoke of the collapse of the apprenticeship system with respect to for plumbers in London.”

Well no, what you really did was copy and paste a few press sources that another poster had already provided in mid-2009, neglect to mention where you obtained them from, and draw errant conclusions from them accordingly. Sally and Garry have successfully demolished the suggestion that the apprenticeship system had collapsed.

“I am saying you are spectacularly ill informed in misquoting one passage”

I haven’t misquoted anything, Lechmere. I’ve quoted Archaic’s sources with complete accuracy, and unfortunately for you, they utterly dispense with the suggestion that “military appearance” meant anything different to “military bearing”. They also dispense with the suggestion that either expression had anything remotely to do with height or weight when it was used in the 19th century. These expressions were in specific reference to posture, carriage and demeanour, which is an unfortunate reality for your quest to create a schism between Lewis’ loiterer and Hutchinson, who were almost certainly one and the same.

“By contrast I have given numerous other examples, from prints, photographs, references to underwear, to details of military uniform.”

Which supposedly demonstrate what, exactly?

Are you seriously suggesting that your hastily-googled cartoons of bellboys carrying boss-eyed parrots assume more weight than Archaic’s unambiguous definitions of the phrases “military appearance” and “military bearing” as used in the late 19th century? You haven’t cast the slightest “doubt on the identification of Lewis's wideawake man and Hutchinson”, and it is pitiable and arrogant nonsense to claim that you have.

[Lechmere]

Mr Ben
Well no I copied some excerpts, put them up and then discussed them. You really have a problem with that for some perverse reason. Probably because I illustrated how those texts showed that the apprenticeship system for plumbers in London largely collapsed in the 1880s. When those texts were originally put up you distinguished yourself by spectacularly and noisily misinterpreting them.
You seem to have a basic problem with comprehending this. I think Sally accepted it by the way, I may be wrong of course.
You can persist in your delusions about apprenticeships and even about military appearances, it matters not to me.
The cartoon that you take such exception to was by the way was a contemporary caricature of a soldier. It provided an exaggerated illustration of ‘military appearance’ as that is what caricatures tend to do. That will have been lost on you. I am quite satisfied that your knowledge of the Victorian military is zero.

[Ben]

“Probably because I illustrated how those texts showed that the apprenticeship system for plumbers in London largely collapsed in the 1880s.”

But you didn’t illustrate any such thing, Lechmere, because no such "collapse" ever happened, and to assert that Sally “accepted it” is grossly to misinterpret her actual comments on the subject, which were as follows:

“No such collapse appears to have taken place. Not my opinion, but contemporary evidence. Lots of it.”

As contemporary records indicate, apprenticeships were still very much in place, and formal tuition was often made possible through a familial connection. In Toppy’s case, that familial connection would have been readily available in the form of his father. This is what Sally “accepted” or rather has researched herself, which is quite the opposite of what you have been asserting.

“It provided an exaggerated illustration of ‘military appearance’ as that is what caricatures tend to do.”

And in this case, the caricature depicted a rigid pose, straight back and a military uniform. Still nothing to do with physique. Even today you’ll encounter comedy or caricature versions of military types as upper class, lanky “toodle-pip” characters, but they are still a very long way off the true military ideal in the physical sense.

[The Good Michael]

There definitely is a characterization of soldiers in the LVP, particularly cavalry officers, of being lean and broad-shouldered, cutting a dashing figure. Of course we know that soldiers run the gamut of size and shape, though ideally, they should be fit and ready for battle. Military appearance definitely indicates some sort of soldierly way in carrying oneself. I'm sure a stout man could pull it off if he was trained to do so. BUt a young man, I don't think so. I think he either had to have been in the military or to have carried himself as sort of a cavalry officer. lean, chin up, confident. In order for even a suspect witness such as Lewis to have suggested the man in Dorset Street had a military appearance, he needed to have followed the phenotype that Lechmere gives.
Then again, the papers said this, and not necessarily Lewis. Even if Lewis said this, it could have been a change in testimony ala Schwartz, Packer, Hutchinson (both then and in later years), and most witnesses. They fill in memory gaps with what makes sense to them, true or not, and that becomes true in their minds.

Mike

[DVV]

BUt a young man, I don't think so.
Mike

I don't think either that Toppy, who was 21 or 22 in 1888, could have known MJK for 3 years, unless he had followed her like her shadow.

The only person living in Whitechapel in 1888 who knew Mary for about 3 years is Joseph Fleming.

Cheers all

[The Good Michael]

Oh yah. That 6'7" guy that remains elusive.


Mike

[DVV]

He wasn't 6'7, Mike.

I don't know even if there was ONE guy that tall in London 1888.

In a circus, perhaps.

[Lechmere]

Mr Ben
As you are utterly devoid of the ability to comprehend basic sentences I will repeat that I said the apprenticeship system for plumbers in London broke down in the 1880s. This means that all the drivel about Toppy having to serve a seven year apprenticeship - is just that - drivel.
I did not say that the apprenticeship system in the entire country in all trades broke down. Can you get that? Good.

[Ben]

“This means that all the drivel about Toppy having to serve a seven year apprenticeship - is just that - drivel.”

Ah, but I never said he “had” to have served a seven-year-apprentice - just that it was the standard means of gaining a toehold in the profession. It is also very clear that this so-called “collapse” of the plumbing apprenticeship system in the 1880s was referred to only in that article you found in the early pages on this thread. There is ample evidence of plumbers’ apprentices around at that time.

[Ben]

Hi Mike,

As explained previously, the present discussion is less concerned with the actual military Victorian ideal (and I still dispute that this had anything to do with being lean and tall), but what people in the 19th century actually meant when they referred to either a “military bearing” or a “military appearance”, and it is clear from the sources provided that the expression applied to a person’s demeanour and carriage, and most emphatically not their height and weight. We may thus assume that the journalist who used the expression “military appearance” in reference to Hutchinson was not making any observations as to height and weight either.

Certainly, there has never been any suggestion that a relatively young man with a “military appearance”, as defined by the sources, must have been in the military, and I’m baffled that anyone should argue otherwise. A man is quite capable of “comporting himself with poise and dignity” and having “a respectful manner which inspires confidence” without having undertaken any formal military training, irrespective of his age.

“Then again, the papers said this, and not necessarily Lewis.”

Not Lewis at all, you mean.

The “military appearance” reference came from a journalist only, and it is not at odds with any aspect of either Sarah Lewis’ description, or the press sketch of Hutchinson.

[DVV]

The “military appearance” reference came from a journalist only, and it is not at odds with any aspect of either Sarah Lewis’ description, or the press sketch of Hutchinson.

This is so obvious, Ben.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Lechmere
I would like to know/clarify your thoughts on the following:

1. Do you think Lewis loiterer and Hutch are the same man?
2. Do you beleive Hutch's claim that he loitered?If so, why do you think he waited there.
3. Do you believe Hutch's claim about A-man? Do you believe he could have remembered all that detail?
4. In General, what do you believe and not believe about hutch's story?
5. Why do you beleive he was "dropped" by police as a witness?
6. Do you believe Toppy and hutch were the same man?
7. Do you believe Hutch is a viable suspect in MK's murder? As JtR?

I am not asking this to be a jerk-I really would like to know your overall thoughts on this. Your coherent story on what you beleive most probable that hapened that night between hutch, MK, A-man etc. as it were. BTW-I would be glad to answer these questions for you about what I think most probable to show that I really am asking you this in good faith. Obviously you know alot about the case,know alot about the period and are passionate about it so i would like to know-whats your story on what happened that night?

[The Good Michael]

Agreed that the 'military appearance' came out later and may not have been Lewis' description. In fact, Lewis gave no description to Abberline as she couldn't remember. The next day she came up with her stout man thing. I think she was three sheets to the wind and I believe she saw someone, but hadn't a clue as to what he looked like.

Mike

[Rubyretro]

I think she was three sheets to the wind and I believe she saw someone, but hadn't a clue as to what he looked like.

Mike[/QUOTE]

What are you basing this on ???