Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[babybird67]

good work Fiend

I searched through this site, but I didn't find this:

357 F iv. Lillian CUSHWAY was born c1921.
Lillian married Reg HUTCHINSON. Reg was born 1916. He died 1997

Is this the same Reginald Hutchinson? He was born the same year in Bethnal Green. Lillian was the daughter of an Emma Doree and a William Cushway. They had many children. They were married in Bethnal Green, so it would be a huge coincidence if this Reg Hutchinson born in 1916 in Bethnal Green was a different guy.

This might mean that there is information lurking in the Cushway domain somewhere.

Cheers,

Mike

worth following up, i should imagine.

[Jane Welland]

Good job!

Nothing's impossible, but I'd guess there was a pretty good chance you were looking at the same man there, Mike.

As to finding further information - I hope you get lucky there. If he came froma big family, there may be many avenues to explore.

Best of luck

Jane x

[Phil Carter]

East End families

worth following up, i should imagine.

Is this the same Reginald Hutchinson? He was born the same year in Bethnal Green. Lillian was the daughter of an Emma Doree and a William Cushway. They had many children. They were married in Bethnal Green, so it would be a huge coincidence if this Reg Hutchinson born in 1916 in Bethnal Green was a different guy.


As the grandson of two lots of East End families, one from Shoreditch/Hoxton, the other from Islington, I have been interested in both genealogy and JTR for many many years and have researched many articles and searched through many archives.
This lifelong interest has told me one thing above all else.
That there are VERY FEW documents, printed, written, official or otherwise, that can be taken "as is".

Through researching the census returns (1841-1911), all BMD results(1837 onwards), there are common faults that appear with regular occurance.

1. Names.
Misspelling of names. Changing of names, from first Christian name to second, from census to census. Dropping of names, both First and Last. Use of "known name" for people that were living at or visiting the building but were out at the time so the info was provided. or filled out, by another. Names in the Parish Books are also unreliable. As a general guideline, one must allow for changes during the last 200 years to have been made all the way along, because the society we know of today, based on total FACT, exact age, description, where born, etc etc, was NOT the norm then. An example of that is the 1841 census which shows age that can vary by 5 years! Because it was accepted to round up the age to the nearest 5 or 10. Some didnt actuall KNOW their own birthday... as many birth certificates have revealed later! Even people who have copied, verbatim, names from Parish record books, have made glaring errors when submitting them to, for example, the free BMD (Births, marraiges and Deaths website. Althought the vast majority are exact, there are many that have had to have been corrected unding checking.
2. Residences
The case of who goes where at any given time is a nightmare for census researchers. A visitor at a place at any given moment in time is NOT always listed in a census. Therefore, there are MANY gaps of names throughout ESPECIALLY the censuses of the 1800's. Together with this, many of the East End residents could neither read nor write, and if asked to fill out the form themselves, either just asked others to do so, or lied. If someone DIDNT want to be known to be in a given place, he or she would change their name, or age, or occupation, or both. I hate to add this, but there were an awful lot of criminals in the East End of London. Whole families of them infact, dotted around any given district. And they didnt like their whereabouts being known.
3. SUSPICION OF STRANGERS
It is almost a by-law, that the East End residents have ALWAYS been suspicious of strangers in their midst. Poverty breeds it's own rules, and if there was a stranger asking questions, he or she was distrusted. Many, many census collectors were given a hostile reception. Have a look at the census records and see that many homes or houses were "empty".. in the middle of a row of tightly packed houses and dwellings. Not always, Im afraid, because the resident was out...We are NOT talking of the type of violent suspicion of the 50's and 60's, with gangs ruling their "manor". But individuals that knew a way of life that was based on limited trust. There were many petty larconists living in the East End. So a stranger in their home? Very suspicious. The urban myth of "the door always being open and you could just walk in" was limited to those who knew each other very well. A knock on the door meant normally one thing. A stranger. And strangers were treated with suspicion.
4. Name occurrance.
Unless one actually looks into it, one is amazed at the amount of people with the same name, married to a spouse with the same first name as many others. This combination means that is unfact is LIKELY that their are other familes with the same name, born, or living in the same street and around the same age.
5. Marraige
It was NORMAL to marry in the womans parish church, NOT the man's. A woman living in Shoreditch for example, that was to marry and even live with a man whose adress was in Islington, would always marry in her own parish.

So summing up, facts that appear to be facts aren't always facts, even if they are official documents. I do not, for one minute, say that the above quote I refer to is wrong, but the automatic assumption that the facts are correct, is a dangerous one.

[David Knott]

It's been a while since I've looked at the Toppy threads, and I haven't read through everything that's been posted so apologies if I cover old ground.

Firstly, yes, reg's wife was Lily Cushway.

Earlier on in the thread there was speculation about a family dispute between Toppy and his father.

After the death of Toppy's mother in 1880, George senior got together with Emma Blackall who was more than 20 years his junior - he married her early in 1888. I have good reason to believe that Toppy did not get on with his father's new wife. This may explain why Toppy was not a plumber in 1888.

David

[Fisherman]

This is interesting news, David - thanks for posting! I don´t suppose you could elaborate a bit about what leads you to suspect a fallout between Toppy and George seniors new wife?

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

My appreciative thanks for the information, David.

I'm not sure why a fallout with his new stepmother would interefere with his plumbing prospects at 22, however, or indeed what evidence exists that would suggest that Toppy was NOT a plumber in 1888?

Best regards,
Ben

[David Knott]

Fisherman,

It is a family story that one of Toppy's grandchildren advised me of.

Ben,

I imagine that Toppy and his father both being plumbers were not entirely independent events, so if Toppy was not on good terms with his father from the mid to late 1880s then this could have been a reason for his delayed entry into the trade. Only a suggestion of course, I'm speculating just like everyone else .

David

[Sam Flynn]

A very good point, David, and one which makes eminent sense. It might also explain why Toppy was "slumming it" briefly in the East End... not that his later Warren Street residence was particularly salubrious either.

[Ben]

Hi David,

Your explanation is possible, certainly, but since there's no record of any bad parental relationship prior to 1888 (i.e. before Hutchinson Sr. remarried) I have to wonder what hinderance there was to Toppy entering the plumbing trade in his teens, with parental assistance of course. Plumbers in Victorian times were often apprenticed at age 14.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Plumbers in Victorian times were often apprenticed at age 14.

As I showed a while back, the "regulation" of apprenticeships in the plumbing trade was a cause for concern around this very time, leading to a requirement that plumbers should obtain proper training and certification. This certification was brought in owing to the poor standards that previously were all-too often exhibited plumbers working in the metropolis. The pressure - and cost - of obtaining the desired training and certification would have been an obstacle to many young individuals, and it was by no means as easy to follow in one's father's footsteps as it might previously have been. Indeed, there would doubtless have been established plumbers out there who found themselves suddenly less employable unless they, too, had gained the desired qualifications.

[Ben]

There was never any suggestion, though, that Toppy was a half-hearted semi-professional plumber, and as such, I doubt very much that the new requirements would have affected Toppy much, considering that he had the option of undertaking an apprenticeship from an early age and gaining experience and possible tuition from his father. If Toppy didn't have a silver spoon in his mouth in terms of the necessary ingredients for a successful plumbing career without cutting corners, then he was, at the very least, ahead of his peers courtesy of that parental connection.

[The Good Michael]

David,

Thanks for chiming in here. I think what many of us are trying to do is eliminate suspects if at all possible. We are not there yet with Hutchinson, and just because he got married and had a secure business, or so it seems, doesn't mean he wasn't the Whitechapel murderer. It does reduce his chances somewhat. I do agree that a 20 year gap in a marriage might be a reason for a young man to be dismayed with his father, though that is also speculation. I encourage you to hang out here a bit, but understand that there are those who only seek to further a theory and don't seem (in my mind) to want to get at the truth.

Cheers,

Mike

[Ben]

It does reduce his chances somewhat

Well, setting aside the obvious observation, to my mind, which was that GWTH had nothing whatsoever to do with the real George Hutchinson who introduced himself to the police on 12th November, the crucial observation is that you'd be wrong anyway. Being married and having a successful business reduces the chances of someone being a serial killer? Really? How. Well, it doesn't, and if you really took the trouble to research the topic of serial crime, you'd realise this. Again, look at Dennis Rader. Steady job. Family man. Serial killer. Furthering your knowledge of a subject you claim to have an interest in would, I suggest, be a far more valuable expenditure of your time than constantly "reminding" anyone expressing an interest in the topic than anyone who disagrees with your stance must have a nefarious agenda.

[Sam Flynn]

If Toppy didn't have a silver spoon in his mouth in terms of the necessary ingredients for a successful plumbing career without cutting corners, then he was, at the very least, ahead of his peers courtesy of that parental connection.

To that speculation, Ben, I'll add one of my own: what if Toppy's father himself was finding it hard to find work, due to those pesky "susstificated" plumbers increasingly getting more of the good jobs? Work was not easy to come by in those days at the best of times, without "City and Guilds" type regulatory bodies pooping the party with their goody-goody talk about hhhedjercation and staaaynderds.

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

From census information, it would appear that Toppy's father was an early entry into the profession, i.e. in his mid to late teens, and around the time that plumbing apprenticeships were generally embarked upon. My suspicion is that Toppy followed a similar course, and that he was in a better position to do so with his father having laid the foundations, or copper pipes in this case! I've no idea how Toppy Sr. fared professionally later in life, but I'm not sure how it would have affected Jr.

All the best,
Ben