Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"That's really how I see it, Fisherman."

But it is not the only way to see it - as displayed by - among other things - the Stars wording about a "gentleman" (I confused it with "elegant" again - I´ll have to shape up and leave that habit behind). And that is why I spend time on promoting the suggestion that we need to open up for another interpretation than the common one. Nota bene that I am not weighing the possibilities in percentages - such things are hard to do, of course - but I think that we are faced with a very real possibility that RC WAS mentioned by Toppy.

"Nobody ever used the word "elegant", though.
Because he wasn't."

Saying such things, Ben, really only detract from the value of your judgement. Neither you nor me could possibly know if he was elegant or not, end of story. We only know that we do not have it on record - but the fact that we do not have the size of the mans nose on record either does not imply that he was noseless.
A conviction is fine, but trying to morph it into truth is not.

"More so than the average Spitalfields labourer perhaps"

Perhaps, Ben? Massive gold chain, red seal stone, spats, astrakhan-collared coat - "perhaps" more elegant than the average Spitalfields labourer?
Can we be for real here?

"Apparent wealth is just too tenuous a paralell to lend itself to the observation that he was "someone like LRC"."

No. Wrong. It is more than enough to justify the parallel, long as you and I do not go around craving far too much exactitude from Toppy.
What we have is a statement from Reg telling us that Toppy had said that them man was someone like RC, nothing more. We do not have the exact wording, and that may be crucial. A few examples of possible wordings may elucidate my thoughts:

"And there he was, this posh man, all fit up and shiny, just like a regular Randolph Churchill"

"...and for a second I thought I´d run into lord Churchill - on Dorset Street! You should have seen him!"

" I´m telling you lads, that man was a man of means, all dressed up and elegant, just like Randolph Churchill and them boys"

"I mean, what was a fellow like that, looked just like lord Churchill and them geezers, doing in our neighbourhood?"

You realize, of course, Ben, that I could go on for ages - and that goes to show what I am suggesting. Tenuous though the link may seem, there is every reason to realize that there need be no royal conspiracy thinking behind Toppys claims. And though Toppy would be wrong in saying that he was just like a regular RC, the fact of the matter is (just like you pointed to yourself a post or two ago) that Toppy may well not have known what RC actually did look like and how he dressed - but he may have entertained the notion that an astrakhan-lined coat, a gold chain and a red seal stone would have been the probable outfit!
As for the "tightly-grasped black package of potentially knife-shaped dimensions", I think that the tight grasp was added by you, Ben, further demonizing an already demonized man, and - more importantly - maybe we should remember that PC Smith from the Stride case reported that HE saw another potentially sinister package, some 18 feet long, in the hands of a man in Strides company on Berner Street close in time to the strike - and he was believed in spite of it ...

There - in spite of my misgivings earlier, I actually WAS able to explain all of this once more and in other words! And by now I have made it all perfectly clear - or?

Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Fisherman,

But it is not the only way to see it - as displayed by - among other things - the Stars wording about a "gentleman" (I confused it with "elegant" again - I´ll have to shape up and leave that habit behind).

The Star's wording didn't reflect Hutchinson's own terminology, though. The latter consistently referred to Astrakhan as "a man", or "the man". While it may be a "real" possibility that Toppy himself made the comparison between Astrakhan and LRC, I'd have to describe it as a remote one.

Neither you nor me could possibly know if he was elegant or not, end of story.

I'll rephrase, Fish: In my view, there is nothing in Hutchinson's description that would suggest that the suspect referred to was "elegant", but I consider that there are and plentiful and compelling indications that the description combined earlier witness sightings with several "sinister" elements that had been conjured up by press and populace as a result of the murders.

No. Wrong. It is more than enough to justify the parallel, long as you and I do not go around craving far too much exactitude from Toppy.

Exactitude isn't required. What is required is a non-tenuous paralell that makes at least a modicum of sense. "Someone like Paris Hilton" would be a ludicrous description of me. To justify that ludcicrous comparison on the grounds that we both have blond hair so the link should speak for itself is even more ludicrous. Irrational comparisons such as these are not impossible, but I doubt very much that anything of that nature occured here.

"...and for a second I thought I´d run into lord Churchill - on Dorset Street! You should have seen him!"

But if he'd phrased it as such to his son, the latter would have appreciated that he was only speaking in jest. In fact, Reg's recorded impression was that Toppy was describing "someone high up - like Churchill", which is problematic because it's fairly obvious that the real Hutchinson wasn't describing anyone "high up like Churchill". High up people like Churchill did not live in the neighbourhood and were not Jewish. Toppy was also quoted as saying that the murders "had more to do with the Royal family than ordinary" people - equally problematic in light of the real Hutchinson's 1888 claims.

As for the "tightly-grasped black package of potentially knife-shaped dimensions", I think that the tight grasp was added by you, Ben, further demonizing an already demonized man

It certainly wasn't added by me. The dimensions, as recorded by his press statement, are potentially knife-shaped, and the package was recorded as being tightly grasped. PC Smith described a newspaper package, yes, and it's entirely possible that Hutchinson decided to incorporate that detail into his own account. Smith wasn't the only one either: there was the black bag man (Goldstein), as well as allusions to similar items from Sarah Roney and our old friend Sarah Lewis.

And by now I have made it all perfectly clear - or?

Yes, but I still disagree on certain points. I'm not saying your "possible" explanation should be excluded, but I consider it very remote. But I think we've probably got the point where rephrasing things isn't likely to convince either one of us any further.

Best regards,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Ben (in small portions):

"While it may be a "real" possibility"

Thanks!

"I'll rephrase"

Thanks again!

"Exactitude isn't required."

Third time over!

"It certainly wasn't added by me. The dimensions, as recorded by his press statement, are potentially knife-shaped, and the package was recorded as being tightly grasped."

Ben, you tell me that we should not lend an ear to the suggestions that Astrakhan man was a gentleman, since that only appeared in the press. In accordance with this, we may need to accept that the official police report on this issue says:

"He also had a kind of small parcel in his left hand. with a kind of strap round it."

So no tight grasping there, I´d say - Hutch may have carried the parcel by the strap.

"Yes"

That makes four - Hallelujah!

"I'm not saying your "possible" explanation should be excluded, but I consider it very remote."

Fine enough. I don´t consider it at all remote, and I think we can allow any other poster to join the line just where they please to!

"I think we've probably got the point where rephrasing things isn't likely to convince either one of us any further"

You know, Ben, you may just have a point there...

Fisherman

[Ben]

Ben, you tell me that we should not lend an ear to the suggestions that Astrakhan man was a gentleman, since that only appeared in the press.

It's not so much that it appeared in the press that I find problematic with the gentleman reference, Fisherman. It's the fact that they clearly were not quoting Hutchinson as having referred to him as such. They, the press, called Astrakhan a "gentleman", not Hutchinson himself. However, they do quote him directly with regard to the "tightly grasped" reference:

"The man I saw carried a small parcel in his hand about 8in. long and it had a strap round it. He had it tightly grasped in his left hand."

From The Times, 14th November 1888.

[Fisherman]

...and that is PRECISELY the sort of thing that makes many of us wary of the possibility that the press may have spiced things up - as for the "direct quotation", ten years ago the main editor of the magazine "Damernas värld" here in Sweden was forced to resign, the reason being that she had published a lengthy interwiew with Agnetha Fältskog of ABBA, the music group, qouting her extensively on lots of issues.
Problem was she had never even spoken to Agnetha ...

Press reports are dodgy things - nobody knows that better than me, Ben. Of course, the indication is there, but the wording is something that reeks of broad paint brushes and bright colours, so I´d advice against putting too much faith in it.

Perhaps the same could be said of The Stars "gentleman" reference - but in this case too it applies that the indication is there.

Fisherman

[Jane Welland]

But...

..I'm still not sure what Randolph Churchill has to do with a witness description of an individual who looks rather a lot like a stereotypical Jew? And was said, indeed, to be of 'Jewish' appearance?

I shouldn't have thought Randolph Churchill would have resembled a Jew?

Is it not more likely, say, that this person described in the statemen was:

A really convincing stereotypical Jew, complete with red hanky, big gold chain, red stone seal ring (like wot Jews wear) and Astrakhan trimmed coat to boot? (like wot East End Jewish immigrants of Russian descent wot have done really well for themselves might wear on a cold night such as this..)*

Or, a made up Jew?

Could be either. Am inclined towards the latter - although willing to be convinced otherwise, quite happily.

You know, I don't think it would have been so hard for anyone living in the East End to have had a pretty clear idea of what a 'Toff' Jew looked like at the time - they were embedded in popular culture for a start, racial and social stereotypes and all.

This is Henry Irving's Shylock - 1880



Hmm, fur trimmed coat, menacing stare...Or, we can have one with a knife from an earlier production..



Hmm, Wealthy Jew with a fur-trimmed coat and a knife....

This isn't entirely serious - but the point is there, nonetheless. If you look into it, you can see how many and various the 19th Century images and writings regarding the immigrant Jew are - how successful he is at social climbing, how he comes into the docks and quickly assimilates himself into the culture, how he rises economically and meteorically, profiting from the less cunning Gentile - The contemporary immigrant Jew is your classic social 'other'.

A popular choice for a vicious murderer? Historically, yes, popular perception would lead in that direction, as it did here.

Jane x

[Fisherman]

Jane Welland writes:

"I'm still not sure what Randolph Churchill has to do with a witness description of an individual who looks rather a lot like a stereotypical Jew"

So I notice - but there is always the option to read the posts on this thread and find out.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

...and that is PRECISELY the sort of thing that makes many of us wary of the possibility that the press may have spiced things up

Although we can't lay every embellishment at the door of the press. Personally, I find it rather unlikely that the press were responsible for these particular embellishments. As we discussed on another thread, it's almost certain that they originated from the same press agency, and I doubt very much that anyone involved in such an organisation would peddle falsehoods deliberately.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Hi Jane,

Is it not more likely, say, that this person described in the statemen was:

A really convincing stereotypical Jew, complete with red hanky, big gold chain, red stone seal ring (like wot Jews wear) and Astrakhan trimmed coat to boot? (like wot East End Jewish immigrants of Russian descent wot have done really well for themselves might wear on a cold night such as this..)*

Or, a made up Jew?

Excellent points here, and I agree, both explanations are plausible, although like you, I favour the latter. Some fascinating illustrations to boot. It would tend to cement my belief that the sinister Jew was very much the popular villian at the time; straight out of a Penny Dreadful, and a potentially convenient scapegoat if one was required (and I believe it was).

All the best,
Ben

[Jane Welland]

Hello Fisherman..

..Read the posts, you say? I did. Jane x

[Jane Welland]

Astrakhan..

..City in the Volga Delta and also the place of origin of Astrakhan wool, made from newborn lambs. It originated in Russia, like many of the Jews in the contemporary East End.

Fashion is a curious beast, for sure. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Astrakhan became fashionable amongst the gentile gentry at some point or another - I don't know this for a fact, am just speculating - but I still think it looks foreign - if well-to-do - in the context of the East End in 1888.

I stand to be corrected, and quite happy to be so.

Jane x ( I do have a picture of an Astrakhan lamb - it's sooo cute!)

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"Although we can't lay every embellishment at the door of the press. Personally, I find it rather unlikely that the press were responsible for these particular embellishments"

I seem to remember that you were of the adverse meaning when it comes to the pointing out of BS man as "respectable" in the very same paper.

Different thing, perhaps?

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Jane Welland:

"Read the posts, you say? I did. Jane"

A slight rephrasing, then: pick up on them ..!

With all due respect,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Different thing, perhaps?

Slightly Fish, yes.

The "tightly grasped" reference clearly originated from a press agency, whereas "respectable appearance" came from a single independent newspaper, The Star. I'm not saying that the respectable detail is "wrong" necessarily, but I'd place a press agency over an independent press interview in terms of trustworthiness anyday.

Hi Jane,

City in the Volga Delta and also the place of origin of Astrakhan wool, made from newborn lambs. It originated in Russia, like many of the Jews in the contemporary East End.

Another fascinating tidbit. Thanks for sharing!

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"I'm not saying that the respectable detail is "wrong" necessarily"

You were back then, Ben - so I´m glad you changed your mind. Incidentally, when you have a press agency AND a paper collaborating, you have TWO possible sources of errors instead of just the one. But that remark is just journalist me...

Fisherman