Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[David Knott]

Richard,

I'm not particularly confident that Reg's father was not the witness. I am confident that Reg didn't appear on the radio in the early 70s. Could you let me know what region the broadcast took place in - I understand that the Radio Times varies from region to region.

Stephen,

Well ... I was young in 1974!

Thanks
David

[Stephen Thomas]

Could you be more precise about the date?

Pirate

Early to mid 1970s according to Richard. I don't know no date and I am not the man to be blamed for nothing.

Maybe you thought I was somebody else.

[Jeff Leahy]

Sorry Stephen, I was just interested generally.

But thanks for the information, I will ask around.

Pirate

[Ben]

I can only repeat my claim

Don't keep saying you "have" to repeat things when you don't!

Please.

Anyway without giving any family secret away, can you convince me that Gwt Hutchinson was fabricating the truth to his son Reg, and if this were so

Not the way it works, Richard. If your theory if that Toppy was the witness in question, it's encumbant upon you to prove it. The onus is not upon everyone else to "convince" you that he wasn't. As for "getting hold" of the payment story, who's to say he didn't just make it up? The circumstances surrounding the payment story are highly dubious - Reg's suggestion being that Toppy was paid to keep quiet about spotting Lord Randoph Churchill the Ripper. Doesn't that give you some sort of clue, like "Hey, maybe there's a nonsensical element involved in all of this?" It really should.

Reg Hutchinson proven son of GWT Hutchinson gave that interview for the programme in question, and therefore Gwt Hutchinson was the actual GH we all discuss.

Uhhh, no.

That doesn't follow at all.

The fact that one bloke said that his dad saw Lord Randolph Churchill the ripper in the 1970s - if Reg ever participated in such an interview, and I don't believe he did - doesn't prove that he was the Hutchinson who claimed to have been Kelly, and it certainly doesn't bolster the veracity of the "original" Hutchinson's claims. The assumption seems to be that, if Reg gave an interview about Toppy being the witness, that somehow increases the likelihood that the real Hutchinson told the truth, and that's a truly scary leap of logic.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Ben,
Many people including yourself, firmly believe that Reg Hutchinson did not appear on tape on a radio broadcast on the subject in the 1970s.
Well lets say for one moment you are all right in that assumption.
The taped interview from Mr X, was not Reg, but someone impersonating him, talking about his bogus fathers integreity, and a suspicious looking man seen with the last victim,the person appearing to be repectable and looked like someone up the social ladder,talking about his [bogus] father assisting the police on patrols, talked about receiving payment of one hundred shillings for his efforts, and finally mentioning it was his fathers[bogus] 'Biggest regret'.
OK fair play.
Answers please.
Does that not ring a bell, is that not what [not disputed] Reg Hutchinson mentioned in the infamous 'Ripper and the Royals?
If you agree...
Does it therefore follow that as there is a major simalarity between the two that the same person was responsible for both?
I must also ask the question.?
The British press did not mention any payment to any witness during the whole of the Ripper period, the only mention of any payment was discovered not that long back, and came from the Wheelers directory, which although was suspicious of the truth behind the man 'who saw Jack', mentiioned that the man [Hutchinson] was paid the equivilent of five weeks wages, for accompanying police patrols, which would be approx what the bogus man on tape said, was it not?
There has been some [Bob for one] who have mentioned the term Zero=zero, suggesting a person like Hutchinson was a penniless vagrant, which is completely ridiculous, he resided at the Victoria home which was not a free institution, he even went there at 6am on the morning of the murder, although proberly not in regular employment, he certainly earned money, what was his own words'Ive spent all my money going down to Romford. Zero=zero Bob?
Ben.
You keep refering to Lord Churchill.
I am not disputing that Reg and Fairclough plugged that suggestion in order to highlight the latters book, but all Reg was doing was suggesting [ as his father suggested] the man his father saw appeared to be more up the social ladder, then people Kelly associated with.
I shall not use the term 'I can only repeat' again, as if I have not made my point clear by now, i never will.
Regards Richard.

[celee]

I find it hard to believe that Lord Randolph Churchill was JTR. There would be a pretty awful irony though if it was him - Sir Winston Churchill was vote the gretest Briton of all time and JTR was voted the worst Briton of all time.

But as I say I think he is a very unlikely candidate.

At last the missing part. I have never read the Abberline diaries. It all makes sence, perfect sence, to me. Lord Randolph Churchill along with Tumblety and Druitt committed the Jack the Ripper murders. Case Closed!

Okay, I believe Hutchinson. I know the press claimed his account was discredited. However, I think the police dismissed the man that Hutchinson saw not George's story.

I find it hard to believe that any Detective worth anything would not put the time of Kelly's murder around 3:45 based on the cry that two independant witnesses heard. One witness claimed the cry was loud and sounded like it was comming from right outside. If the Detectives believed Kelly was killed an hour and a halve after George saw her enter her home with well dressed man then they may well dismiss Hutchinson's man as just another client because they probably thought, as I do, that the Ripper would finish Kelly off soon after entering her home.

I know that they still would have wanted to question Hutchinson's well dressed man and I would be willing to bet that Hutchinson's description led to a few men being questioned.

Your friend, Brad

[David Knott]

Richard,

I expect you've been asked this already, but are you sure it wasn't the Radio 4 broadcast on 1st June 1972, the script of which has been released as a limited edition booklet under the name Michell Raper?

David

[Bob Hinton]

My amusement monkey rants again!

Poor old Mr pirate - off again! As anyone with one brain cell still functioning could tell you I’m not poking fun at dyslexia, merely poking fun at your preposterous assertion that dyslexia is a language!

You’re such a funny little man that I think I will keep you as my amusement monkey. Every time I am feeling a little blue I shall just look up the latest Mr Pirate Rant.

By the way for someone who seems to want to accuse other people of being xenophobic. (I still don’t get that) you seem to have a severe problem with me being Welsh. Which I’m not, but you seem to think it’s very important to emphasise that. What to you have against the Welsh? Perhaps you do protest too much about xenophobia?

[celee]

HI,

I think I may have some Welsh in me.

Your friend, Brad

[Bob Hinton]

Broadcast

Richard,

I expect you've been asked this already, but are you sure it wasn't the Radio 4 broadcast on 1st June 1972, the script of which has been released as a limited edition booklet under the name Michell Raper?

David

Dear David,

This is the broadcast I found while trying to put this one to bed. It fitted perfectly with what Richard says he remembers but doesn't contain anything along the lines of what he is looking for.

I personally believe this is the correct broadcast, I can't think that the BBC put out two such programmes within such a short space of time.

I think that Richard has been confused. I believe he listened to this broadcast and then later watched the Ripper File (Barlow & Watts) on BBC TV and over the years the two have become merged in his memory. ( PS anyone interested I will have some copies of the Ripper File for sale)

I even obtained a copy of the script, but have since sold it.

[Nemo]

It has been speculated recently that George Hutchinson may even have been an alias

I would like to point out that a George Hutchinson illustrated the 1888 book edition of "A Study in Scarlet" which was released in July I think

It could be a source of the alias if that is the case

[celee]

Poor old Mr pirate - off again! As anyone with one brain cell still functioning could tell you I’m not poking fun at dyslexia, merely poking fun at your preposterous assertion that dyslexia is a language!

You’re such a funny little man that I think I will keep you as my amusement monkey. Every time I am feeling a little blue I shall just look up the latest Mr Pirate Rant.

By the way for someone who seems to want to accuse other people of being xenophobic. (I still don’t get that) you seem to have a severe problem with me being Welsh. Which I’m not, but you seem to think it’s very important to emphasise that. What to you have against the Welsh? Perhaps you do protest too much about xenophobia?

LOL,

That is a funny post. I sometimes get a kick out of reading the fighting back and forth. It is pointless but fun to read and educational. I am just an old surfer from Daytona Beach so I had to look up the definition of xenophobia.

Your friend, Brad

[Ben]

However, I think the police dismissed the man that Hutchinson saw not George's story.

No.

We've just been through this, Brad!

An investigating officer cannot discard a witness account purely on that assumption that maybe this suspect wasn't the ripper because maybe someone else arrived on the scene afterwards. It was still absolutely imperative for the police to track down the Astrakhan man in order to interview him and "eliminate him from their inquiries", and to do that meant keeping Hutchinson's statement in the frame and using it for potential identity parades etc.

As of the 15th November, we learn that the account was "discredited" and subsequent police memoirs, interviews and reports would tend to bear this out, but you don't discredit a witness account on the assumption that the suspect mentioned might not be the killer. Hutchinson's account must, therefore, have been discarded for a better reason than "maybe" the real ripper arrived after Astrakhan left.

Hutchinson's account may well have led to a few men being questioned, but it's clear that after a very short time, this ceased. There may have been members of the public who reported Astrakhan men in the months after the murder, but they would have been clueless as to the current status of his account.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Answers please.
Does that not ring a bell, is that not what [not disputed] Reg Hutchinson mentioned in the infamous 'Ripper and the Royals?

Does what ring a bell, Richard?

If we have no evidence - only your say-so - that someone appeared on the radio in the 1970s, and stated that his father's "biggest regret" was that nothing came of his having seen a well-dressed man (etc etc etc), then there is simply no bell to ring. In the absence of anything tangible to bolster your claim that this radio show occured as you said it did, there can be no "interesting coindicence" with the Fairclough book.

The British press did not mention any payment to any witness during the whole of the Ripper period, the only mention of any payment was discovered not that long back, and came from the Wheelers directory

Which should ring all manner of alarm bells already.

Think about it; all those meticulous journalists in London all frantically in search of a scoop and one obscure American newspaper headline entitled "Gossip" carries the story of one clever individual being paid-off for his efforts? Doesn't seem very likely to me, but let's assess some of the other "gossip" from that same article to assess its worth. Most British newspapers claimed that Barnett conducted himself well at the inquest and appeared respectable. In stark contrast to all these observations is the Wheeling Register which claimed that Barnett was roaring drunk!

So it's not only "gossip", it's gossip that's contradicted by all other accounts.

Using one deeply dubious source (this one) to bolster an even more dubious source ("my dad saw Churchill the ripper") will simply never fly, besides which I've already explained why a police force were very unlikely to have paid witnesses. They didn't offer rewards for the same reason. Once money enters into the equation, you can only expect to be deluged with bogus witnesses all eager to be paid too.

There has been some [Bob for one] who have mentioned the term Zero=zero, suggesting a person like Hutchinson was a penniless vagrant, which is completely ridiculous, he resided at the Victoria home which was not a free institution

Nobody has ever described Hutchinson as a "penniless vagrant". It was simply observed that the police believed him to be temporarily out of work. In other words, he wasn't currently earning. Unfortunately, "not currently earning" times 5 equals zero pounds. Did he lie about being out of work? Very possibly, but the point is that the police believed him when he claimed he was presently unemployed.

but all Reg was doing was suggesting [ as his father suggested] the man his father saw appeared to be more up the social ladder, then people Kelly associated with.

Sorry, I'm afraid there's no evidence that Reg ever made such a claim.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jeff Leahy]

BOB is that a girls name?

Poor old Mr pirate - off again! As anyone with one brain cell still functioning could tell you I’m not poking fun at dyslexia, merely poking fun at your preposterous assertion that dyslexia is a language!

You’re such a funny little man that I think I will keep you as my amusement monkey. Every time I am feeling a little blue I shall just look up the latest Mr Pirate Rant.

By the way for someone who seems to want to accuse other people of being xenophobic. (I still don’t get that) you seem to have a severe problem with me being Welsh. Which I’m not, but you seem to think it’s very important to emphasise that. What to you have against the Welsh? Perhaps you do protest too much about xenophobia?

Ok Bob lets try just one last time. Do try and keep up I gather that the ape-men of the Inca’s have managed to master this…

Dyslexia is abnormal difficulty in spelling caused by a condition in the brain. It is the miss communication of language caused by damaged nerve endings.

Xenophobia is an irrational Intolerance of, or dislike of, foreigners i.e. people from different places who speak different languages.

As I am trying to explain to you that my brain communicates in a different way to yours i.e. speak a different language. And as you appear to have an IRRATIONAL INTOLLERANCE to other peoples spelling. I have described your view of Dyslexics as Xenophobic. i.e. Irrational Intolerance.

Like most forms of bigoted intolerance, such as racism, the key trigger is usually one of Fear. Fear of the unknown. Fear of people who are different.

Well news flash Bob you don’t have to be afraid anymore…dyslexics don’t bite they just need a little more time and understanding when communicating in what is to them, basically a foreign language called……. Letters.

As for the Welsh stuff its clearly self-deprecating, ironic humour as my grandfather Lewis is welsh, and ever since the TV series Black Adder “O my god she’s not welsh is she” has been a family use for ironic jest…I’m also part Irish (though I discovered the Parnell’s are actually descended from the Tudors) and part Scottish. Not that that really has any relevance, as according to the latest historical DNA analysis we are all descended from a handful of people who managed to survive the last ice age only 15000 years ago (except the Aborigines and some tribe living up the Amazon- and No I have no irrational fears of these peoples-they are cool by me)

So no I’m not poking fun at you for being Welsh or English for that matter, I’m poking fun at you for being Irrational and intolerant of people who have a disability when it comes to spelling…

Heaven preserve us

Pirate

PS Couldn’t find the Welsh gag so I thought I’d put this out for the ladies, sexism, surely not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML1139cijVU&feature=related