Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[David Knott]

I contacted the family last year. They were extremely helpful, but did ask that I didn't post their information on the internet, so I have to respect that.

I did ask them about the radio interview, however, and let's just say that if it did ever happen, then some members of the family that would have surely known about it at the time can no longer remember anything about it ever taking place.

This, combined with other information, makes me 99.99% sure that Reg never appeared in such a radio interview.

[Jeff Leahy]

OK Bob Hinton, lets get this absolutely straight once and for all before you wonder around these boards in your own little fantasy world spilling your own brand of up your own *** Dyslexic xenophobia.

People with Dyslexia simply have Dyslexia. They are born that way; they are permanently disabled for life. It happens in the womb. It is the result of damage between the two halves of the brain.

At no point do Dyslexics get any better or any worse (unless tiered). They don’t miss –spell things to deliberately upset ‘crotchety old Welshman with a xenophobic attitudes, they simply do not notice that letters and words are missing when they check them back…its that simple…

FACT-Pirate Jack always puts his posts through word and spell check. And has apologized, if while posting in haste in ‘pub talk’ one night he did not….however he always try’s his best to make posts as clear as possible and uses Spell checks..

FACT-Spell checks have there limitations for Dyslexics because they only show words that are miss –spelled, so spelling errors that are actually words do not show up.

It is clear, that like Carol Thatcher, that you simply enjoy causing offence to people.

As I said before Bob while I find it frightening that people like Ally might be left in-charge of impressionable young children who suffer from Dyslexia. I only feel pity for someone who claims his own brother suffers from dyslexia, can treat people the way he does. Especially a man who views himself as a Historian, an Author, and man of learning.

Why do I find you and Ally’s attitude to Dyslexia so offensive? Well one of my earliest memories of school was being made to stay in every play time, while the offer kids went out to play, and being made to write the alphabet over and over again till I got it right.

Of course I never managed to write it correctly and never understood why. And the witch of a teacher who made is do it, never bothered to show me the error I was making.

I have however learned to stand up against such repulsive people.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

P.S. Just as a perfect example of what I am trying to knock into Bobs rather dense skull is the example above of the word ‘OFFER’

Clearly this word is meant to read ‘OTHER’ as a dyslexic I know exactly what I mean and even how to spell OTHER. However somewhere in writing the line it got muddled in my brain and I wrote the word OFFER. This did not show up as a spelling error because it is NOT according to the spell check. I must have checked this post several times. However when I read it, I only see the word OTHER. Its only when I come back at a later time that my brain registers the error.

I don’t do this to irritate or annoy anyone. Unfortunately its how my brain works. And no amount of petty insults aimed at Dyslexics is ever going to change that. They simply are the way they are. FACT.

[Brenda]

I contacted the family last year. They were extremely helpful, but did ask that I didn't post their information on the internet, so I have to respect that.

I did ask them about the radio interview, however, and let's just say that if it did ever happen, then some members of the family that would have surely known about it at the time can no longer remember anything about it ever taking place.

This, combined with other information, makes me 99.99% sure that Reg never appeared in such a radio interview.

Wow! Is there anything you are able to tell us about your meeting with Reg's family? I'll bet that was an interesting meeting.

[Slimsid2000]

I find it hard to believe that Lord Randolph Churchill was JTR. There would be a pretty awful irony though if it was him - Sir Winston Churchill was vote the gretest Briton of all time and JTR was voted the worst Briton of all time.

But as I say I think he is a very unlikely candidate.

[David Knott]

Hi Brenda

We corresponded rather than meeting in person, and like I say, they requested that I didn't post the information on the internet.

Essentially I wanted to establish whether or not G W T Hutchinson was really the Kelly witness. In this respect I failed - I still don't know.

There were three main objections to G W T Hutchinson being the right man: -
1. Known biographical details did not seem to tie in
2. Lack of corroborative support for Reg's story
3. Bob H had already discovered that his signature did not match those on the witness statement

In my opinion, and trying not to give too much away, 1 is no longer an issue, 2 is definitely an issue, and 3 is only an issue if you believe that the signatures on the witness statement were Hutchinson's, but as the signatures on each page are very different from each other, there must be a fair argument to say that none of them are actually Hutchinson's.

David

[Ben]

Hi David,

There's a fair argument to be made that only one of the signatures was Hutchinson's, but it would be far less convicing to argue that none of them were. In fact, the differences between them would most strongly suggest that Hutchinson had signed the first page, but someone else may have been responsible for the other two.

I would have to disagree that "1 is no longer an issue".

The biographical incompatibility is crucial. The lack of corroboration of Reg's story is not as problematic for me as the actual content of his account, and it's association with a discredited Royal Conspiracy theory and the accompanying proposal of Churchill as Mr. Astrakhan the Ripper is unquestionaly a "con" (in both senses of the word!)

Best regards,
Ben

[David Knott]

Hi Ben,

Well, 1 is no longer an issue for me in the sense that there were previously strong question marks over whether GTWH would have been in the East End at the time, and also there was the suggestion that he was always a plumber.
It's only a personal opinion, but from the information provided neither of those now stand in the way of me believing that GTWH was the witness ... I don't believe that there is any longer a major 'biographical incompatibility'.

The lack of corroboration in itself would be a small concern to me, but coupled with other information provided it is an enormous concern.

As to the signature, I think it perfectly possible that none of them are Hutchinson's.

But if I had to get off the fence, I would come down on the side that GTWH was not the witness.

David

[Ben]

Hi David,

There's no evidence that he couldn't have been in the East End at the time, certainly, but there's equally no evidence that he had any East End connections until he met a girl who came from the East End in a music hall several years after the murders in 1895, whom he subsequently married. There are at least three other "George Hutchinsons" in the census records who can at least attest to East End connections at the right time.

More biographically problematic to my mind is the recorded occupation of Toppy, which had ostensibly been that of a plumber all his life, apprenticed by his father as soon as he become of age, and who was "rarely, if ever out of work". That simply doesn't compute with someone who was an unemployed former labourer by the age of 22.

I believe the spidery-scrawl signature on the first page was Hutchinson's, and that the latter two may have been added subsequently by a policemen who had perhaps forgotten that official protocal dictated that all pages should have been signed.

Best regards,
Ben

[David Knott]

Hi Ben,

What I'm trying to say is that I agreed with the points you make before I contacted the family, but now I don't.

There are more than reasonable grounds to believe that he was not a plumber in 1888, and there are links with the East End. I just haven't posted them.

Where are you getting the information that he was apprenticed by his father? Certainly his father was also a plumber, but the evidence I have suggests that he was not apprenticed by his father, and was very possibly not living with his father in 1888.

Like I said though, for me he probably wasn't the witness. I had a number of objections before I contacted the family, some of which have now disappeared, but others of which are now greater than they were before.

David

[Ben]

Hi David,

Yes, I remember you saying you felt it less likely that Toppy was the witness after you'd been in contact with the family.

I'm only going on the strength of Reg's claims to the effect that his father worked as a plumber and was "rarely, if ever out of work". Given the paucity of employment opportunities, I naturally assumed that he took advantage of his father's connections and experience to obtain work. I'd be extremely surprised if he didn't take that opportunity, and became a plumber entirely independently of his plumbing father, but if your source says otherwise, fair enough. He needn't have lived with his father in 1888, but if he wasn't a plumber by that stage, it would certainly militate against Reg's claims.

I don't doubt that he became acquainted with the East End, but not until after he met his "East End" wife in 1895.

Best regards,
Ben

[Bob Hinton]

Mr Pirate rants again!

You’ve got to hand it to Mr Pirate, nothing like a good rant to brighten up a chilly morning!

Not quite sure what who he is referring to as an “old Welshman with a xenophobic attitudes”.

According to my dictionary xenophobia means “intense or irrational fear of people from other countries”. I didn’t realise that Dyslexia was a country!

So I really don’t consider myself xenophobic, actually I don’t consider myself a Welshman since I was born in England.

So 10 out of 10 for ranting (although the hair pulling could use some work) but nothing at all for accuracy.

How did I know that Mr Pirate would be against Carol Thatcher!

No Mr Pirate if I deliberately wanted to offend you I might lower myself to your level and borrow your burgeoning lexicon of offensive words. I do find it slightly amusing that people like you find it impossible to carry on a discussion or debate without resorting almost immediately to personal abuse.

Well you carry on being a foul mouth yob Mr Pirate, and I’ll carry on being me!

The thing is that you’ve already admitted that your poor presentation before was as a result of sheer laziness, which is exactly what Ally and I said it was. Since then your posts have improved, in structure if not content, immeasurably.

As for you finding things offensive I really don’t care what you find offensive. Why do assume the rest of the world must tip toe around in case we offend you? Where is it written that no one must ever offend you in any way? Why don’t you stop to consider that people might find your rather immature name calling offensive. Or is it that no one is allowed to offend Mr Pirate but he reserves the right to offend everyone else?

[richardnunweek]

Hi David,
With respect my friend if you are a betting man[ I am] then your 99.9 percent would be classed a a sure thing, but dont wager on it David, because you, along with Regs relatives, and the entire legions of Casebook will lose their hard earned cash.
I heard that broadcast, and during the last quarter of the airing, the son of the witness was heard discussing his fathers character, like which was to be included in the 'Ripper and the Royals'.some eighteen years later.
We know that Faircloughs informer was Reg Hutchinson, and we know that his father was Gwt Hutchinson, so unless someone impersonated Reg on that broadcast, I would suggest that he recorded that tape, and it was the voice of the late Reg Hutchinson that yours truely exclusively heard.
With respect to the relatives, it was after all some thirty five years ago, also the wavelength was not a popular one[ cant remember which], but it most definately advertised in the radio times, simply because I remember reading it a few days previously.
It was to my knowledge advertised as 'The man that saw Jack' and apart from a summary of the Ripper case, concentrated on what the witness Hutchinson observed on the early hours of the 9th November, I remember that at the end of the tape the man who appears to have Reg stated 'My father said it was his 'biggest regret,' that dispite his efforts he was unable to get any result.
Some events tend to stick in the mind, and even though thirty five years is a long time past, i can remember vividly sitting on my aunts settee , and listening to that broadcast [ approx forty minutes].
Regards Richard.

[Ben]

It's a bummer when you can remember something but can't produce the goods, Rich. It's like that damned confession from the archives of Claybury asylum. Just can't seem to find the dratted thing.

[Jeff Leahy]

You’ve got to hand it to Mr Pirate, nothing like a good rant to brighten up a chilly morning!

Not quite sure what who he is referring to as an “old Welshman with a xenophobic attitudes”.

According to my dictionary xenophobia means “intense or irrational fear of people from other countries”. I didn’t realise that Dyslexia was a country!

So I really don’t consider myself xenophobic, actually I don’t consider myself a Welshman since I was born in England.

So 10 out of 10 for ranting (although the hair pulling could use some work) but nothing at all for accuracy.

How did I know that Mr Pirate would be against Carol Thatcher!

No Mr Pirate if I deliberately wanted to offend you I might lower myself to your level and borrow your burgeoning lexicon of offensive words. I do find it slightly amusing that people like you find it impossible to carry on a discussion or debate without resorting almost immediately to personal abuse.

Well you carry on being a foul mouth yob Mr Pirate, and I’ll carry on being me!

The thing is that you’ve already admitted that your poor presentation before was as a result of sheer laziness, which is exactly what Ally and I said it was. Since then your posts have improved, in structure if not content, immeasurably.

As for you finding things offensive I really don’t care what you find offensive. Why do assume the rest of the world must tip toe around in case we offend you? Where is it written that no one must ever offend you in any way? Why don’t you stop to consider that people might find your rather immature name calling offensive. Or is it that no one is allowed to offend Mr Pirate but he reserves the right to offend everyone else?

Clearly your failour to understand the English Language speaks for it self. I suggest you look up the word ‘FOREIGN’ which states: of or from or situated in or characteristic, a country or language other than ones own.

So as you can see I choose my words carefully which is more than can be said for you.

Never had an accident in his life, Bob Hinton…seen thousands.

Lets just remind ourselves who actually started this abuse and xenophobic behaviour (i.e. act against a foreign language) which is what, from a perspective, Dyslexia is.

And of course I berate Carol Thatcher for her insidious racial abuse. Surprise, Surprise we have Bob Hinton sticking up for her. Speaks loads doesn’t it.

As for ‘offensive’ let me remind everyone that Bob Hinton Started this attack on Dyslexics. And clearly re-started that attack on this thread. I merely want to show the world the sort of narrow-minded bigot that he is.

Even more ironic (you better look that word up Bob) that you choose to berate people about ranting while choosing to rant about them…

You might be able to spell, but when it comes to actually contacting the grey matter between the two halves of your brain…well your pour old, supposedly normal brain never really got off the starting blocks did it…

As for your accusation that until you pointed out the fact that I couldn’t spell (which news flash everyone else on casebook has known for a long long time) that I’d never used a spell check. Well its utter ******** like most of the posting that you create around here….

As for whether or not you are offended. Frankly my dear I don’t give a damn.

I make the effort to try and make my posts as legible as possible out of consideration to the majority of posters on casebook, who are actually interested in JtR rather than making themselves seem important.

Pirate