Topping Hutchinson - looking at his son's account

[Abby Normal]

I think that you are right on this:

I don't believe that he would have 'prolonged the attack time' -(and this is only personal -I don't know), because 'Jack" doesn't seem to have been a
person enjoying the torturing and domination of his victims -but seems to have wanted to transform them into dehumanised bits of meat as quickly as possible. It's the mutilation that he enjoyed.

Given the extent of mutilation to Mary's face, I can't imagine 'Jack' sitting around listening to Mary warbling 'Violets'..[/QUOTE]

Hi Ruby

Good point. And I agree its the mutilation thats the thing.

But remember, this is the first time he was in total privacy with his victim. I think he enjoyed the hunt-perhaps he was toying with his prey (if it was Blotchy)- pro longing his pre attack exitement (but as you say nothing to do with torture and domination).

But your probably right-JtR I think probably would have attacked Mary alot sooner once he had her alone in the room.

[Rubyretro]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

Roy -I think that the most likely candidate for Jack the Ripper, would surely be who Ben terms 'Mr Joe Average'.

Of all the 'Mr Joe Averages' in London at the time, one has stepped forward,
out of the shadows, to place himself at the last crime scene with a convoluted **** n' Bull story.

His presence at the crime scene would appear to be supported by an idependant witness.

Effectively most of which 'George Hutchinson' recounted was probably a lie
-but there are maybe some starting points to find the real person ? (not Toppy !).

[Rubyretro]

I think that you are right on this:

as serial killers do, he was getting cockier, and taking more chances-thinking he could get awy with more. and/or getting more careless.

[/QUOTE]

I don't believe that he would have 'prolonged the attack time' -(and this is only personal -I don't know), because 'Jack" doesn't seem to have been a
person enjoying the torturing and domination of his victims -but seems to have wanted to transform them into dehumanised bits of meat as quickly as possible. It's the mutilation that he enjoyed.

Given the extent of mutilation to Mary's face, I can't imagine 'Jack' sitting around listening to Mary warbling 'Violets'..

[The Good Michael]

Someone please point me to a newspaper article that says Hutchinson gave a statement after the inquest. I know we've taken that for granted, and it does make sense the way it's been peddled, but there are several newspapers that say that Hutchinson gave his account at the inquest. So, it seems possible that he did give a statement to Abberline and then testified.

Here are some examples:

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/atchison_daily_globe/881114.html

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_star/881114.html

Many articles say that Hutchinson gave his account to a reporter which matched with what he gave the police. I haven't seen any that say the inquest closed, and then HUtchinson ran in to clear himself.

Mike

[Abby Normal]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

Hi Roy
Probably George Hutcninson. I think giving a fake name(if he was MK's murderer) to police would be too risky. It would be easier to prove/disprove this than other lies and would indicate a much more nefarious motive.

And If Hutch was just liar but not a murderer then really no reason to give fake name either.

[Abby Normal]

Abbey..

-I don't think that Blotchy was the killer at all : the Ripper's MO was to strike fast and in silence -not to sit about drinking and singing and being observed by the neighbours. The carroty 'blotchy' physique is pretty individual , too.
Re: Harry's thread...I think that Blotchy was happy to look Mrs Cox full in the face...not the Ripper's style..

-So that would mean that either Mary went out again after Blotchy (but I've already explained why I think that she didn't) or the Ripper stalked her home and waited until Blotchy left... (a 'loiterer' anyone ?).

I agree with Garry that Hutchinson certainly didn't speak to Mary that
night...at least in the immediate hours before the murder : that 'spreeish' is a
lovely example of 'sitting on the fence' and not giving an opinion one way or the other..[/QUOTE]

Hi Ruby
Good point about Blotchy. and the "spreeish" hedge on Hutch's part.

However, on Blotchy, If JtR was getting "better" at what he did and along with his escalations, perhaps he was honing his MO and started to realize that he could really live out his fantasy to the fullest if he could find a women with her own place. So perhaps he started to try to be more selective in his target. And since he knew he was in a private situation with MK in her room and thinking the chance of being interupted was slim-prolonged the pre attack time (and the mutilation time). perhaps as serial killers do, he was getting cockier, and taking more chances-thinking he could get awy with more. and/or getting more careless.
And of course, other than Hutch, he was the last person seen with MK.

That being said, I think he probably was not JtR. After his night of fun with MK he probably took off around 3 ish.

[Roy Corduroy]

Who was he then? If the only part believed is that he lurked outside, where he was seen, then everything he said could be a lie. Including his name.

Roy

[Rubyretro]

.

I suspect he never mentioned Kelly's clothing for the same reason - he didn't know what she was wearing before she retired for the night.

All the best,
Ben[/QUOTE]

perfect !

[Ben]

Yes, a very astute observation, Ruby.

It's as though he didn't want to "commit" himself to any definite impression as to the extent of her intoxication or otherwise, in order to avoid being contradicted by doctors and other witnesses who were in a genuine position to determine such things. I suspect he never mentioned Kelly's clothing for the same reason - he didn't know what she was wearing before she retired for the night.

All the best,
Ben

[DVV]

that 'spreeish' is a
lovely example of 'sitting on the fence' and not giving an opinion one way or the other..

Excellent point, madame Ruby !

[Rubyretro]

What do you think about that? Do you think she went out again after Blotchy?

[/QUOTE]

Abbey..

-I don't think that Blotchy was the killer at all : the Ripper's MO was to strike fast and in silence -not to sit about drinking and singing and being observed by the neighbours. The carroty 'blotchy' physique is pretty individual , too.
Re: Harry's thread...I think that Blotchy was happy to look Mrs Cox full in the face...not the Ripper's style..

-So that would mean that either Mary went out again after Blotchy (but I've already explained why I think that she didn't) or the Ripper stalked her home and waited until Blotchy left... (a 'loiterer' anyone ?).

I agree with Garry that Hutchinson certainly didn't speak to Mary that
night...at least in the immediate hours before the murder : that 'spreeish' is a
lovely example of 'sitting on the fence' and not giving an opinion one way or the other..

[Ben]

I agree entirely, Abby.

The client pickings would also have been very slim after 3.00am in bad weather.

it does not allow us to exclude the possibility that Kelly DID go out after 3 AM.

I’m not excluding the “possibility”, Fisherman. I’m dismissing the suggestion as improbable, because it relies on the discredited evidence being correct and the police-endorsed evidence, given under oath, being mistaken. I’m glad we seem to be in agreement over this, because to argue otherwise would very much undermine your published theory.

My reference to “credible non-discredited evidence” is not “tongue wiggling”, but an accurate and appropriate description of Mary Cox’s account.

[Abby Normal]

Without wishing to get too sidetracked, I too wanted to endorse Ruby’s sensible points.

There is no credible non-discredited evidence that Kelly emerged from her room after returning there with Blotchy. The strong indication is that Kelly stopped singing shortly after 1.00am when Mary Cox headed out for the last time. Elizbath Prater arrived at the entrance to Miller’s Court shortly afterwards; by which time, the frivolities had clearly ceased. Prater stated that she would have noticed a glimmer of light (from Kelly’s room) through the partition had there been one, but no light was noticed as she ascended the staircase to her room at 1.30am. The next sighting of the room occurred at around 3.00am when, according to Mary Cox, there was no light or noise coming from Kelly’s room.

This sequence of events would suggest to me that Kelly retired for the night between 1.00 and 1.30, perhaps following some intimacy and certainly some booze with her Blotchy companion. It isn’t impossible that she headed out afterwards, but I consider it unlikely. When Cox last saw her shortly before 12.00 Kelly was barely capable of bidding her a simple goodnight, such was the extent of her intoxication, and there was still Blotchy’s ale-pail to consume, which she almost certainly did. The idea that she would convert to mere “spreeishness” a couple of hours later doesn’t bear scrutiny.

But back to Toppy….

Hi Ben
In a previous post before Ruby's I had also pointed out those reasons(MK very drunk, pail of beer with Blotchy,singing, bad weather) as why I think that MK probably did not venture out after Blotchy. And you have further pointed that the other witnesses have the room dark and quiet by 1-1:30 indicating that she was probably retired by that time.

Also, I find it telling that no one other than Hutch saw her out after that time. You would think if she was out then someone else would have seen her.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"There is no credible non-discredited evidence that Kelly emerged from her room after returning there with Blotchy."

No "credible non-discredited evidence"?? Me oh my!

There is no evidence EITHER WAY! And just as the evidence does not allow us to leisurely name the loiterer Hutchinson, it does not allow us to exclude the possibility that Kelly DID go out after 3 AM.

"The idea that she would convert to mere “spreeishness” a couple of hours later doesn’t bear scrutiny."

In this case, Ben, I am with you to a significant extent. I too am of the opinion that Kelly being only spreeish at 2 AM is something that arouses suspicion. But that does not mean that I am prepared to draw firm conclusions from it. Cox´s judgement was drawn from a short sighting, and she may have gotten things wrong to a greater or lesses extent. Therefore, although it serves my theory eminently to have a gloriously drunk Kelly at close to midnight, and a merely spreeish one at 2 AM, I accept that she could have been less intoxicated than one may be lead to believe by Cox´testimony, and, likewise, she may have had more alcohol in her blood at 2 AM than Hutchinson perceived.

Come to think of it; what if Hutchinson saw her the day BEFORE; that would explain a thing or two

It is a comfy position to take - I don´t need to speak of any tongue-wriggling "credible non-discredited evidence" that way!

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Without wishing to get too sidetracked, I too wanted to endorse Ruby’s sensible points.

There is no credible non-discredited evidence that Kelly emerged from her room after returning there with Blotchy. The strong indication is that Kelly stopped singing shortly after 1.00am when Mary Cox headed out for the last time. Elizbath Prater arrived at the entrance to Miller’s Court shortly afterwards; by which time, the frivolities had clearly ceased. Prater stated that she would have noticed a glimmer of light (from Kelly’s room) through the partition had there been one, but no light was noticed as she ascended the staircase to her room at 1.30am. The next sighting of the room occurred at around 3.00am when, according to Mary Cox, there was no light or noise coming from Kelly’s room.

This sequence of events would suggest to me that Kelly retired for the night between 1.00 and 1.30, perhaps following some intimacy and certainly some booze with her Blotchy companion. It isn’t impossible that she headed out afterwards, but I consider it unlikely. When Cox last saw her shortly before 12.00 Kelly was barely capable of bidding her a simple goodnight, such was the extent of her intoxication, and there was still Blotchy’s ale-pail to consume, which she almost certainly did. The idea that she would convert to mere “spreeishness” a couple of hours later doesn’t bear scrutiny.

But back to Toppy….