Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Batman]

Hi Batman
are you saying that hutch was telling the truth all along, and that Aman was Chapman?

Here are two composite sketches done in modern times based on witness descriptions.

This is certainly Hutchinson's man...

http://www.forartist.com/forensic/composite/jacktheripper/jtrsketch.jpg

This one was based on all the descriptions

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061121/061121_jackripper_vmed_4a.grid-4x2.jpg

This is Chapman

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/r8pSglATO20/hqdefault.jpg

Abberline must have held the idea of how JtR looked from Hutchinson's description. So when he learned about Chapman and must have somehow got a look at him, probably figured a resemblance.

If Chapman was JtR, then Hutchinson may well be vindicated... as well as Abberline.

I have dismissed Hutchinson in the past because of the arguments made against him but over time they seem to get weaker than I once thought.

So I think the matter is that H-division thought him an important witness and arrested people because of him. That when the killings had 'stopped', they had no new leads to go on and later in life Abberline found out about Chapman, who wasn't a Jew, which didn't fit with some of the other investigators who thought JtR was a Jew... hence their siding with Kozminski.

[Sam Flynn]

Kłosowski was far too young to be either Hutchinson's or Lewis's man, and he was of the wrong build (slight as opposed to stout). Furthermore, he was a newly-arrived immigrant scraping a living as a lowly hairdresser - and, until recently, had only been a lowly hairdresser's assitant, so was extremely unlikely to have been as dandified as he later became. He'd lived in the wrong part of town until a short time before the Ripper murders, and quite possibly didn't even move to the right part of town until the murders were already underway, if not finished. Furthermore, he only acquired any proficiency in English some time after 1888, which is hardly surprising since he appears to have spent his initial years in London mixing with people with whom he shared if not ethnicity, then a language (Polish and Yiddish).

Those decidedly speculative modern sketches are too old to be Kłosowski, and don't much resemble contemporary impressions of Hutchinson's man either, to be honest. So, have no fear, Seweryn Kłosowski was neither Astrakhan Man nor Jack the Ripper.

[Abby Normal]

Here are two composite sketches done in modern times based on witness descriptions.

This is certainly Hutchinson's man...

http://www.forartist.com/forensic/composite/jacktheripper/jtrsketch.jpg

This one was based on all the descriptions

http://media3.s-nbcnews.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/061121/061121_jackripper_vmed_4a.grid-4x2.jpg

This is Chapman

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/r8pSglATO20/hqdefault.jpg

Abberline must have held the idea of how JtR looked from Hutchinson's description. So when he learned about Chapman and must have somehow got a look at him, probably figured a resemblance.

If Chapman was JtR, then Hutchinson may well be vindicated... as well as Abberline.

I have dismissed Hutchinson in the past because of the arguments made against him but over time they seem to get weaker than I once thought.

So I think the matter is that H-division thought him an important witness and arrested people because of him. That when the killings had 'stopped', they had no new leads to go on and later in life Abberline found out about Chapman, who wasn't a Jew, which didn't fit with some of the other investigators who thought JtR was a Jew... hence their siding with Kozminski.

OK thanks Batman
However, if Abberline always believed Hutch, once chapman came on the radar and Abberline was giving his interview with Pall Mall paper, then one would expect he would have mentioned Hutch and his suspect if they had such an impact, instead of opting for witnesses who descrbed a man with a peaked cap, especially since Aman does kind of fit chapmans description. Plus abberline also said all the witnesses only saw his back. Oh well.

anyway your narrative makes overall sense.

[Abby Normal]

Kłosowski was far too young to be either Hutchinson's or Lewis's man, and he was of the wrong build (slight as opposed to stout). Furthermore, he was a newly-arrived immigrant scraping a living as a lowly hairdresser - and, until recently, had only been a lowly hairdresser's assitant, so was extremely unlikely to have been as dandified as he later became. He'd lived in the wrong part of town until a short time before the Ripper murders, and quite possibly didn't even move to the right part of town until the murders were already underway, if not finished. Furthermore, he only acquired any proficiency in English some time after 1888, which is hardly surprising since he appears to have spent his initial years in London mixing with people with whom he shared if not ethnicity, then a language (Polish and Yiddish).

Those decidedly speculative modern sketches are too old to be Kłosowski, and don't much resemble contemporary impressions of Hutchinson's man either, to be honest. So, have no fear, Seweryn Kłosowski was neither Astrakhan Man nor Jack the Ripper.

hi Sam
I agree with most of what you say here except age. perhaps hutch and chapman just looked older than there years? I could definitely see that with chapman.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Sam
I hadn't thought of that possibility before. interesting.

I cant remember all the details and witness statements but I have always found lewis's bethnal green botherer man an intriguing character and possible candidate for Aman.


Is it possible that:



this man could have been the bethnal green botherer? or does lewis sequence of events rule him out?

just trying to see if it is possible that the bethnal green botherer could have been Aman.

hey bumping this for Sam (or anyone else who knows)

[Sam Flynn]

hi Sam
I agree with most of what you say here except age. perhaps hutch and chapman just looked older than there years? I could definitely see that with chapman.

Klosowski didn't look older than his years even at the time of his arrest, and had barely turned twenty in 1888. He was wiry even in his later years, when he had more money with which to lead a decent life, so it's extremely unlikely that he would have been "stout", "broad-shouldered", or their equivalents, when he was a lowly hairdresser/assistant during his early stay in London. Given all that, it's unlikely that he'd have looked like a 30- or 40-something, as most Ripper suspects were reported by the majority of witnesses in 1888.

[Sam Flynn]

hey bumping this for Sam (or anyone else who knows)

Hello Abby. As I see it, the Bethnal Green Botherer - and/or the man seen by Lewis outside Ringer's, if they were one and the same - wasn't quite as nattily dressed as Astrakhan Man.

[Batman]

OK thanks Batman
However, if Abberline always believed Hutch, once chapman came on the radar and Abberline was giving his interview with Pall Mall paper, then one would expect he would have mentioned Hutch and his suspect if they had such an impact, instead of opting for witnesses who descrbed a man with a peaked cap, especially since Aman does kind of fit chapmans description. Plus abberline also said all the witnesses only saw his back. Oh well.

anyway your narrative makes overall sense.

It seems that this divided H-Division. Abberline went his way looking for a non-Jew of Hutchinson's description and Swanson and Anderson went looking for a Jew of Lewende's (possibly Schwartz) description and eventually got Kozminski.

It is very strange that Abberline on Chapman is but just a short article. One would think Abberline would himself have put pen to paper to write up something a bit better or gone chasing it himself, but there is nothing. I don't know what the reason was for that.

Yet again neither did Swanson or Anderson except to give us some scant details about Kozminski that don't make total sense.

[Abby Normal]

Klosowski didn't look older than his years even at the time of his arrest, and had barely turned twenty in 1888. He was wiry even in his later years, when he had more money with which to lead a decent life, so it's extremely unlikely that he would have been "stout", "broad-shouldered", or their equivalents, when he was a lowly hairdresser/assistant during his early stay in London. Given all that, it's unlikely that he'd have looked like a 30- or 40-something, as most Ripper suspects were reported by the majority of witnesses in 1888.

totally get what your saying, but the age thing dosnt seem to have concerned Abberline at all. why was that?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby. As I see it, the Bethnal Green Botherer - and/or the man seen by Lewis outside Ringer's, if they were one and the same - wasn't quite as nattily dressed as Astrakhan Man.

ok thanks. I noticed that too. I need to go back and look at all the witness statements again.

unfortunately sarah lewis isn't in the witness section here for some reason?? anywhere else here on casebook that has her full statements?

[Abby Normal]

It seems that this divided H-Division. Abberline went his way looking for a non-Jew of Hutchinson's description and Swanson and Anderson went looking for a Jew of Lewende's (possibly Schwartz) description and eventually got Kozminski.

It is very strange that Abberline on Chapman is but just a short article. One would think Abberline would himself have put pen to paper to write up something a bit better or gone chasing it himself, but there is nothing. I don't know what the reason was for that.

Yet again neither did Swanson or Anderson except to give us some scant details about Kozminski that don't make total sense.

hi batman
Actually Abberline did write rather extensively on chapman IMHO and gave a quite lengthy reasoning why he thought he made a good suspect (and discounting others theories/suspects). he even followed it up with more after others questioned his ideas and about the dissimilar nature of the rippers and chapmans (poisoning) murders. even so far to give a full theory relating chapman to the American doctor who was looking for female specimans.

also, when the reporter first called on him he said he had already started writing this all up to send to the commish.


Any way I just find it a little odd he never mentions hutch or his suspect.

[Batman]

Klosowski didn't look older than his years even at the time of his arrest, and had barely turned twenty in 1888. He was wiry even in his later years, when he had more money with which to lead a decent life, so it's extremely unlikely that he would have been "stout", "broad-shouldered", or their equivalents, when he was a lowly hairdresser/assistant during his early stay in London. Given all that, it's unlikely that he'd have looked like a 30- or 40-something, as most Ripper suspects were reported by the majority of witnesses in 1888.

Yet Lewende identified Kozminski in his 20s and Lewende was one of those small pools of witnesses who gave a description of JtR.

This illustration probably paints a picture of the stout squat man you describe a bit better. Yeah, it's not so easy to see Chapman in that unless he lost weight. Most of those guts were from beer and malnutrition anyway. Even the women had them. Interestingly enough that illustration shows an idea of what it thought Hutchinson looked like, but I doubt any of those illustrations are accurate at all, but they may have got Hutchinson's JtR right.

There are pros and cons for Chapman. I still think he makes the upper tier of good suspects.

[Batman]

hi batman
Actually Abberline did write rather extensively on chapman IMHO and gave a quite lengthy reasoning why he thought he made a good suspect (and discounting others theories/suspects). he even followed it up with more after others questioned his ideas and about the dissimilar nature of the rippers and chapmans (poisoning) murders. even so far to give a full theory relating chapman to the American doctor who was looking for female specimans.

also, when the reporter first called on him he said he had already started writing this all up to send to the commish.


Any way I just find it a little odd he never mentions hutch or his suspect.

All I have read is the main Pall Mall article. What are the other documents?

[Sam Flynn]

Yet Lewende identified Kozminski in his 20s.

Let's just say I have my doubts about that.

There are pros and cons for Chapman.

Far more cons than pros, I'm afraid.

[Abby Normal]

All I have read is the main Pall Mall article. What are the other documents?

there was a follow up article after people questioned the difference between the nature of the rippers and chapmans murders.

not sure where to find it.

any way Ive always thought chapman is one of the more valid suspects.