Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Sam Flynn]

Lewis has a man standing outside of Miller's court looking up it.

Hutchinson claims to be standing outside of Miller's court looking up it.

Lewis has a man standing opposite Miller's Court "over against" Crossingham's. She is quite specific in this.

Hutchinson says that he went to Miller's Court, and mentions being at the the corner of Miller's Court, but he doesn't say that he stood "over against" the lodging house opposite.

He doesn't once mention seeing Lewis, even though she would have been slap-bang in his field of vision when she approached, then entered Miller's Court. He also told the press that "One policeman went by the Commercial-street end of Dorset-street while I was standing there, but no one came down Dorset-street. I saw one man go into a lodging-house in Dorset-street, and no one else" (my emphases).

[Batman]

Lewis has a man standing opposite Miller's Court "over against" Crossingham's. She is quite specific in this.

Hutchinson says that he went to Miller's Court, and mentions being at the the corner of Miller's Court, but he doesn't say that he stood "over against" the lodging house opposite.

He doesn't once mention seeing Lewis, even though she would have been slap-bang in his field of vision when she approached, then entered Miller's Court. He also told the press that "One policeman went by the Commercial-street end of Dorset-street while I was standing there, but no one came down Dorset-street. I saw one man go into a lodging-house in Dorset-street, and no one else" (my emphases).

We are talking a matter of a few feet across a very narrow road. 45 min of Hutchinson claiming to be there. I understand your position is that this was someone else.

If it was someone else, then why is that man not followed up more in the reports and police reports?

Seems to be me both the press and Abberline put together it was Hutchinson and so there was no more mention of the Lewis' man as he was identified.

[Sam Flynn]

We are talking a matter of a few feet across a very narrow road. 45 min of Hutchinson claiming to be there.

45 minutes in which Lewis was also there, but he didn't see her and, in fact, said that he saw nobody in Dorset Street apart from one man entering a lodging house.

If it was someone else, then why is that man not followed up more in the reports and police reports?

Perhaps he was followed up, with or without success. Not all the official records have survived, and not everything was reported in the press, whose coverage of the case in any event eased off soon after the Kelly murder.

Seems to be me both the press and Abberline put together it was Hutchinson and so there was no more mention of the Lewis' man as he was identified.

Thus, perhaps, letting the true Ripper get away with it.

[Fisherman]

Hutchinson is your main competitor in the witness-turned-suspect stakes.

Ah! Well, no, I don´t consider Hutchinson much of a competitor at all. He is, as I put it the "light version":

While he was close to a victim, Lechmere was in contact with one.

It is not proven that Hutch was close to Kelly close to her death, while it IS proven that Lechmere was in contact with Nichols very close to the TOD or in the midst of it.

It is said that Hutch may have swopped identities and used a false, but that is a "may" - while we know that Lechmere opted for Cross.

It is said that Hutchinson MAY have lied, while the information about an extra PC WAS untrue.

Hutchinson, George William Topping, does not pose any threat to my theory, and he does not affect it in any way, so no, you are wrong.

[Fisherman]

Hutchinson is your main competitor in the witness-turned-suspect stakes.

It's amazing how you go from bellowing out how people will be brought to task for making mistakes and then suddenly when it comes to the crunch you want to take off after avoiding the question.

Lewis has a man standing outside of Miller's court looking up it.

Hutchinson claims to be standing outside of Miller's court looking up it.

You argue a trivial matter of a few steps as to where he was seen standing, but you have no explanation for both of these accounts coming from two different people who do not know each other.

That's called corroboration.

Don´t be a donkey. Not only do I have an explanation, I have also provided it: It was two different men on two consecutive nights.

There is absolutely no point of identification between the two. Lewis said that her man was heavyset and shortish, but we have no description of Hutchinson, unless we accept that he was Topping.
For all we know, he may have been long or short, thin or thick, light or dark, old or young.
Therefore, there is no point of identification avaliable. The identofication made rests solely on how we accept that Hutchinson was in place when Lewis was, and that is something that seems never to have been the case.

The rest of the "evidence" consists of how Lewis said that her man seemed to be looking up the court as if waiting for someone to come out, but that evidence is extremely odd in the first place (how do we look when we are waiting for somebody to come out of a court, does anybody know?), it was given after Lewis got to know that Kelly had been killed inside the court and so she could have come up with the idea as a result of this, consciously or without being aware of it herself, and there is every reason to accept that a lodger from Crossinghams can have stepped out through the door and peered out into the rain, waiting for it to subside, and that Lewis misconstrued that for waiting for someone to come out of Millers Court.

I really hope you are not going to lead on that I am avoiding the issue as such - I know it inside out (as opposed to you) and I don´t mind debating it if my opponent has something intelligible to offer.

You don´t, and THAT is why I have had quite enough of this rot.

[Batman]

45 minutes in which Lewis was also there, but he didn't see her and, in fact, said that he saw nobody in Dorset Street apart from one man entering a lodging house.Perhaps he was followed up, with or without success. Not all the official records have survived, and not everything was reported in the press, whose coverage of the case in any event eased off soon after the Kelly murder.Thus, perhaps, letting the true Ripper get away with it.

With just Lewis, we have a man, regardless of where he is standing exactly, looking up Miller's court as if waiting for someone.

For Hutchinson to inject himself into the story, he would have to know about this man, or it is a big coincidence.

More importantly, if Hutchinson had gotten hold of the story then he would have retold it with all the Lewis elements including Lewis. Yet he didn't. As far as I know, trying to get the inquest story to Hutchinson has timeline problems even though he was late in coming forward.

[Batman]

Don´t be a donkey. Not only do I have an explanation, I have also provided it: It was two different men on two consecutive nights.

Prove that.

It seems to me you are guessing this.

[Abby Normal]

45 minutes in which Lewis was also there, but he didn't see her and, in fact, said that he saw nobody in Dorset Street apart from one man entering a lodging house.Perhaps he was followed up, with or without success. Not all the official records have survived, and not everything was reported in the press, whose coverage of the case in any event eased off soon after the Kelly murder.Thus, perhaps, letting the true Ripper get away with it.

Hi Sam
are you of the same opinion of fish and dew that hutch got the night wrong and he was actually there on a different night?

[Sam Flynn]

For Hutchinson to inject himself into the story, he would have to know about this man, or it is a big coincidence

I dunno. Perhaps the man Lewis saw standing outside the lodging house was the man Hutchinson saw go into the lodging house.

[Harry D]

While he was close to a victim, Lechmere was in contact with one.

Lechmere had reason to be in contact with the victim, Hutchinson didn't.

Passing through Buck's Row at that hour was part of Lechmere's normal routine. Loitering outside Miller's Court was not orthodox behaviour.

It is said that Hutchinson MAY have lied, while the information about an extra PC WAS untrue.

The information about the extra PC is disputed and unsupported.

[Abby Normal]

We are talking a matter of a few feet across a very narrow road. 45 min of Hutchinson claiming to be there. I understand your position is that this was someone else.

If it was someone else, then why is that man not followed up more in the reports and police reports?

Seems to be me both the press and Abberline put together it was Hutchinson and so there was no more mention of the Lewis' man as he was identified.

Hi batman
hutch also later told the press he went into the court and stood by marys door, something he left out of the police statement.


now why would he leave such an important detail out of the police version?


as to whether he was the man sarah lewis saw to me it is obvious that it was hutch. he dosnt say EXACTLY where he was staning , just outside the court . lewis is just being more specific.


too bad we dont have a description of hutch other than lewis to corroberate what he looked like, but they both describe him as standing outside the court waiting and watching "as if waiting for someone to come out" which is exactly what he was doing, by his own admission. I find it almost impossible that they werent the same man.

[Abby Normal]

I dunno. Perhaps the man Lewis saw standing outside the lodging house was the man Hutchinson saw go into the lodging house.

huh? how does that work? hutch was already standing there when lewis entered the scene and saw hutch.

[Sam Flynn]

huh? how does that work?

It only takes Hutchinson and/or Lewis's timings to be out by a couple of minutes.

hutch was already standing there when lewis entered the scene and saw hutch.

He doesn't say he was standing "over against" Crossingham's, and he doesn't say he saw Lewis. To me, this is a huge minus against Hutchinson being there when Lewis entered Miller's Court.

Hutchinson says he watched Kelly and her man in Commercial Street on their way to Miller's Court, and Lewis said she saw a man and woman at the corner of Dorset and Commercial Street as she passed them en route to the Keylers. If the couple outside Ringers included Mary Kelly, then she had not yet got home; the man standing "over against" Crossingham's thus could not have followed Kelly and her man to Miller's Court and, ergo, he was not Hutchinson.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps the man seen outside the lodging house was Henry Maxwell the lodging house keeper. Keeping an eye on the court [whilst performing his duties] for Mcarthy [making sure Mary doesn't do a moonlit bunk with her rent arrears etc]
.

[Fisherman]

Prove that.

It seems to me you are guessing this.

Prove it?

Have you proven that the men were the same? Or are you guessing?

I told you not to be a donkey. Please come good on that.