Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[MrBarnett]

Who is the corroborating source?

For what?

That MJK lived there? Mrs Buki and Mrs McCarthy.

That it was a brothel? Charles Booth and others.

That Flemming visited her there? Mrs McCarthy seems to have known him (or of him).

[Batman]

Perhaps because the police were able to interview Hutchinson (may even have known him?). We also pass judgement on the lighting conditions which we can only guess at but which Abberline and Badham will have known from personal experience.

There is also the pressure that the police were under to take into account. One possible consequence is that they may have been less critical in their thinking when presented with a witness who gave a detailed description. Another is that, under the same pressure, they put their own pressure on a witness to give more detail and to remember more than he could. That's not something which should happen but I can see how it might have come to pass.

I tend to think this is the point. That Abberline knows more than we do. So we defer to Abberline. Sugden points out that making Hutchinson into a fame seeker isn't so easy.

[Batman]

So Flemming used to frequently visit her in a brothel on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezers Hill, but had no idea she was a prostitute?

Who is the corroborating source?

[Bridewell]

Hutchinson offers no description of MJK.

Hutchinson's statement offers no description. That doesn't mean that Badham and/or Abberline didn't question him on the point, which would have been the proper course of action. If they did so, and satisfied themselves that MJK was indeed the person he claimed to have seen (or, better still, verified that he did indeed know her) inclusion of a description in a statement might have been seen as superfluous. MJK and Hutchinson may even have been known to the police as associates.

[MrBarnett]

So Flemming used to frequently visit her in a brothel on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezers Hill, but had no idea she was a prostitute?

I should add that at the time that corner of the East End was a major red-light district, containing dozens of ‘brothels’ and scores of prostitutes.

[Bridewell]

Hello Harry,

If the police had no reason to consider Hutch as a suspect then why does practically everyone on these boards consider his story and behavior highly suspicious?

c.d.

Perhaps because the police were able to interview Hutchinson (may even have known him?). We also pass judgement on the lighting conditions which we can only guess at but which Abberline and Badham will have known from personal experience.

There is also the pressure that the police were under to take into account. One possible consequence is that they may have been less critical in their thinking when presented with a witness who gave a detailed description. Another is that, under the same pressure, they put their own pressure on a witness to give more detail and to remember more than he could. That's not something which should happen but I can see how it might have come to pass.

[MrBarnett]

Barnett makes this claim...

THE RATCLIFF HIGHWAY,
... Then she went to Pennington-street, I believe, and lived in a bad house there. In connection with that house she mentioned the name of Joseph Flemming, a mason's plasterer, of whom she said she was very fond. He used to often visit her. I picked up with her in Commercial-street one night when we had a drink together, and I made arrangements to see her on the following day, which was a Saturday. We then agreed to live together, and I took lodgings in a place in George-street, not far from where the George-yard murder was committed. I then lived with her up to when I left her, just recently.

So Flemming used to frequently visit her in a brothel on the corner of Pennington Street and Breezers Hill, but had no idea she was a prostitute?

[Batman]

https://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=458076&postcount=51

[MrBarnett]

No, it seems more likely that she lied to Flemming and not Barnett who seems to be there enjoying hookers coming around to stay until he gets kicked out.

Also in the hypothesis, Flemming is finding out all this stuff from his victims.

Also, Flemming seems to be mentally unbalanced.

In this hypothesis, what kind of life was she leading when she met Flemming?

Sorry, I keep doubling up my posts!

[Batman]

No, she isn't. She's barely even the link to Mary Jane Kelly.
No, let's not say, even for now, that they stayed in the shed. There is one, probably spurious, report of one other victim crashing out in a shed off Dorset Street, and that was probably just a shed. There is no evidence whatsoever that any of the other victims, or anyone else, crashed out in McCarthy's colloquially-named "shed", which was not a shed at all, but the front room of #26.

https://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=10973

I'll go with Paul Begg on this.

Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts (Kindle Location 5256). Chapter 16.

[Sam Flynn]

MJK is the link to most/all the victims.

No, she isn't. She's barely even the link to Mary Jane Kelly.

They stayed in the shed (let's just say for now!) at the front of Miller's court. That's how they know her. She invited them to stay in her room from time to time, but not as a group.

No, let's not say, even for now, that they stayed in the shed. There is one, probably spurious, report of one other victim crashing out in a shed off Dorset Street, and that was probably just a shed. There is no evidence whatsoever that any of the other victims, or anyone else, crashed out in McCarthy's colloquially-named "shed", which was not a shed at all, but the front room of #26.

[Batman]

In this hypothesis, what kind of life was she leading when she met Flemming?

Barnett makes this claim...

THE RATCLIFF HIGHWAY,
... Then she went to Pennington-street, I believe, and lived in a bad house there. In connection with that house she mentioned the name of Joseph Flemming, a mason's plasterer, of whom she said she was very fond. He used to often visit her. I picked up with her in Commercial-street one night when we had a drink together, and I made arrangements to see her on the following day, which was a Saturday. We then agreed to live together, and I took lodgings in a place in George-street, not far from where the George-yard murder was committed. I then lived with her up to when I left her, just recently.

[MrBarnett]

No, it seems more likely that she lied to Flemming and not Barnett who seems to be there enjoying hookers coming around to stay until he gets kicked out.

Also in the hypothesis, Flemming is finding out all this stuff from his victims.

Also, Flemming seems to be mentally unbalanced.

In this hypothesis, what kind of life was she leading when she met Flemming?

[Batman]

The Ratcliffe Highway period was corroborated, as was the West End episode.

Are you saying that Kelly lied to Barnett, made up a complicated back story about herself being a prostitute that she didn’t spin to Flemming? She told him ‘I’m a good girl, I am!’, and he believed it?

No, it seems more likely that she lied to Flemming and not Barnett who seems to be there enjoying hookers coming around to stay until he gets kicked out.

Also in the hypothesis, Flemming is finding out all this stuff from his victims.

Also, Flemming seems to be mentally unbalanced.

[Darryl Kenyon]

If Hutch did get the dates wrong we are still left with the problems of believing his over-elaborate description, eyelashes and all. His waiting until after the inquest to come forward, plus the fact that you would almost certainly have heard within a few hours [if you were in Whitechapel] about the events in Miller's court. And let's say, for argument's sake that he didn't think the murder occurred [at first], until later in the morning [Maxwell], he would surely remember that he had seen Mary that night, surly looking Gentleman, followed them etc. But to me, the main reason I don't believe he mixed the evenings up is, would someone who was pertaining to obvious wealth be wandering a dangerous area of Whitechapel at night [bag in hand, easily snatchable, gold chain], go down a notorious street and be led into a darkened court by a prostitute whilst all the time being followed by a man she had spoken to who could easily be her accomplice.