Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn
The papers said he was a youth? Don't think so.

Some did. That´s what it says on the Bowyer page out here on Casebook - the one I quoted earlier.

Anyway, he wasn't a youth, so Dew was wrong. Categorically so.There are more facts that can be checked and proven wrong.

He was not a youth, but we cannot ask of people to be able to always notice that. It is the impression we get that counts. It is a common thing that we get such things wrong.
Yes, there are facts that are not correct in Dews book, but they are few and far between compared to how he gets just about all the rest right.

Let's face it, you need Dew to be trustworthy so that you can get both Astrakhan Man and Hutchinson out of the way to make room for you-know-who.

Haha! You are a funny man, Gareth! I never wanted Astrakhan man or Hutchinson out of the way. Anybody who suggests Hutchinson is comparable to Lechmere is factually shipwrecked, and that is quite enough for me. He does not stand up to the carman on any level, as I have pointed out numerous times.
But it is interesting how you look upon me as a complete maniac, I must say. And that is against - for example - the backdrop of you saying that it is a near certainty that the torso man lived in the west - as if you are hellbent on never accepting a common originator for the two series.

You see, if we are to lower ourselves into the bog of petty accusations, we are going to have to take that swim side by side.

[Sam Flynn]

You see, if we are to lower ourselves into the bog of petty accusations, we are going to have to take that swim side by side.

I don't think it was a petty accusation at all. It should be obvious to anyone that getting Hutchinson and Astrakhan out of the way leaves the door wide open for other suspects. Or, mutatis mutandis, that Hutchinson's being correct about the date makes it more difficult to put another suspect in Miller's Court.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks, Gary! So he was 39 in 1888? Not all that much, I dare say. Then again, if he perished in 1889 from Bright´s disease, he may not have looked all that sprightly in 88...

He was invalided out of the army in 1886, aged 37, suffering from Bright’s disease. He’d also contracted syphilis and suffered from fever and other ailments while in the army, so he may have looked older than his age in 1888.

[MrBarnett]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

[Batman]

Doesn´t it say that nobody got a "good look" at the killer? Like how Lawende saw his man (who need NOT be the killer to begin with) and his face, but not good enough to be able to recognize him.

It must be understood that the police were grasping at straws. Whatever possibility they had, they would likely take it, perhaps including identifications made by people who had said that they would probably not recognize somebody.

Yet we have Swanson basically claiming a witness instantly identified someone as JtR and this is corroborated by Anderson.

It seems to reject/accept Hutchinson, is either way based on a lack of information we are not privy too or has been lost.

Hutchinson physical description of JtR is not too dissimilar to the others.

5 ft 6in, Slight moustache, 34-35

Wouldn't surprise me if the handkerchief he gave her was his knife swiping cloth.

The only thing standing out about him is his clothes. Which as we have said, can be explained by the Ripper altering his appearance, something which I think investigators knew all too well could happen when their witness statements appeared in the media.

[Fisherman]

I don't think it was a petty accusation at all. It should be obvious to anyone that getting Hutchinson and Astrakhan out of the way leaves the door wide open for other suspects. Or, mutatis mutandis, that Hutchinson's being correct about the date makes it more difficult to put another suspect in Miller's Court.

More difficult? I dunno. I think there are hours on end left to allow for another killer. And Hutchinson was there at between 2.15 and 3 AM, roughly, whereas Lechmere - if the killer - seems to have arrived at a later stage.
So I am having no problems at all with Topping, Gareth. Never did.

And it WAS a petty accusation, I know then when I see them.

[Fisherman]

He was invalided out of the army in 1886, aged 37, suffering from Bright’s disease. He’d also contracted syphilis and suffered from fever and other ailments while in the army, so he may have looked older than his age in 1888.

Very much agreed, yes. Sickness will often enough do that to you.

[Fisherman]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

Which would have another implication than hollow cheeks. Thanks for that, an interesting observation.

[Fisherman]

Batman: Yet we have Swanson basically claiming a witness instantly identified someone as JtR and this is corroborated by Anderson.

In a sense, it is the other way around. Swanson is not as proven as Anderson to believe (or feign belief) in all of this.
The crux of the matter is that:
We don´t know who the witness was
We don´t know who the suspect was (other than that Swanson calls him Kosminski)
We don´t know what the identification fixed. It could have been just about anything.

It seems to reject/accept Hutchinson, is either way based on a lack of information we are not privy too or has been lost.

Very true. And lost information can never be good evidence.

Hutchinson physical description of JtR is not too dissimilar to the others.

5 ft 6in, Slight moustache, 34-35

True.

Wouldn't surprise me if the handkerchief he gave her was his knife swiping cloth.

It would surprise me, though, since I believe it happened the day before the murder. So snot is more likely than blood on that handkerchief.

The only thing standing out about him is his clothes. Which as we have said, can be explained by the Ripper altering his appearance, something which I think investigators knew all too well could happen when their witness statements appeared in the media.

Could? Yes. But just how likely is it that the Ripper would choose to imitate a christmas tree?

[Sam Flynn]

Incidentally, there are at least two contemporary images of Bowyer and in both he has a dark line or shading on his cheek. They may just be meant to represent hollow cheeks, but his army record mentions a ‘liver mark’ on his cheek.

Oddly enough, both illustrations are rather in agreement about the nose, mouth, moustache and chin, albeit one (Illustrated Police News) is very much cruder than the other (Penny Illustrated). The latter, with which I'm most familiar, is a fine drawing by an evidently skilled artist.

[Batman]

Batman:
The only thing standing out about him is his clothes. Which as we have said, can be explained by the Ripper altering his appearance, something which I think investigators knew all too well could happen when their witness statements appeared in the media.

Could? Yes. But just how likely is it that the Ripper would choose to imitate a christmas tree?

Yet we know people who were arrested were wearing the same type of coat.
So what do we have? A horseshoe pin? Watch on a chain? The illustrated police news put together this image. Just seems someone went out of their way not to look too shabby or poor and certainly not a sailor.

[Sam Flynn]

how likely is it that the Ripper would choose to imitate a christmas tree?

Reminds me of Trevor Marriott's favourite Christmas carol:

"O Feigenbaum, o Feigenbaum, wie treu sind deine Blätter"

[Abby Normal]

Lewende identified Kozminski the moment he saw him according to Swanson.

No one saw JtR in the act except maybe Schwartz caught the start of it.

As for which witness saw JtR. We don't know because he wasn't caught unless one accepts the case against Kozminski.



Best & Gardner description is thus...

The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. I don't know the colour of his tie. I said to the woman, "that's Leather Apron getting round you." The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough.

Why isn't that JtR? They got that she was wearing a flower. Gardner identified the body.



So Lewende was dismissed also? This isn't a good argument. Plus in the same quote Abberline says 'all agree, too, that he was a foreign-looking man'. That's Hutchinson also.



The choice is either the contemporary files on the case or a 15 year plus memory. What do you pick?

Hi Batman

Lewende identified Kozminski the moment he saw him according to Swanson.

No one saw JtR in the act except maybe Schwartz caught the start of it.

As for which witness saw JtR. We don't know because he wasn't caught unless one accepts the case against Kozminski.

exactly-which points to schwartz suspect or Lawendes suspect-NOT hutchs suspect.

Best & Gardner description is thus...

The man was about 5ft. 5in. in height. He was well dressed in a black morning suit with a morning coat. He had rather weak eyes. I mean he had sore eyes without any eyelashes. I should know the man again amongst a hundred. He had a thick black moustache and no beard. He wore a black billycock hat, rather tall, and had on a collar. I don't know the colour of his tie. I said to the woman, "that's Leather Apron getting round you." The man was no foreigner; he was an Englishman right enough.

Why isn't that JtR? They got that she was wearing a flower. Gardner identified the body.

because best and gardener saw her (if they did see her) way to early before she was murdered to make any difference. and besides he wasn't wearing a peaked cap anyway like ALL the other witnesses describe, INCLUDING lawende and company.

and there description isnt even as close to the amount of detail hutch provides.

So Lewende was dismissed also? This isn't a good argument. Plus in the same quote Abberline says 'all agree, too, that he was a foreign-looking man'. That's Hutchinson also.

no Lawende wasnt dismissed, probably because of boasting, poor memory and wishful thinking on the part of Anderson (backed up by his devoted underling Swanson). but he probably should have.


yes Abberline does say "all" but a pitance of a mispeake because some did admittedly but most did not. I sense a little bit of possible prejudice on his part though because chapman was a foreigner.

The choice is either the contemporary files on the case or a 15 year plus memory. What do you pick?

not quite sure what your referring to here, but if its in reference to the peaked cap- it is in the contemporary files, and again hutch makes no mention of Aman wearing a peaked cap.

[Fisherman]

Oddly enough, both illustrations are rather in agreement about the nose, mouth, moustache and chin, albeit one (Illustrated Police News) is very much cruder than the other (Penny Illustrated). The latter, with which I'm most familiar, is a fine drawing by an evidently skilled artist.

If it is true to the depicted man, then it´s a fine drawing by a skilled artist.

If it is not - different story.

Let´s be clear here - I am not saying that the sketch is not depicting Bowyer. I am simply saying that if you want to pick flaws from Dews book, there are clearer and better examples.

[Fisherman]

Yet we know people who were arrested were wearing the same type of coat.
So what do we have? A horseshoe pin? Watch on a chain? The illustrated police news put together this image. Just seems someone went out of their way not to look too shabby or poor and certainly not a sailor.

Nothing is changed because the police were interested in people in Astrakhan coats, Batman. I still believe that it is quite unlikely that the Ripper would use that kind of disguise, since far from diverting interest, it instead attracts it.