Why Didn't the Police Have Schwartz and/or Lawende Take a Look at Hutchinson?

[Abby Normal]

That was probably because Isaacs was already a person of interest, not because he was extravagantly dressed.

thanks Sam
Im trying to see if people arrested and or questioned later was done so because they specifically matched hutchs suspect/description.

as in-were they still after Aman later on.

[Sam Flynn]

thanks Sam
Im trying to see if people arrested and or questioned later was done so because they specifically matched hutchs suspect/description.

Well, Joseph Denny was nabbed for pestering women in King's Cross in December 1888, and he was wearing an astrakhan trimmed coat. That's where the resemblance with Astrakhan Man ends, however; Denny was short, aged only 20, and sported a mop of very curly hair.

as in-were they still after Aman later on.

Depends who you mean by "they". Denny wasn't arrested by H Division police, so the coppers in King's Cross weren't exactly party to the latest information.

[Batman]

That was probably because Isaacs was already a person of interest, not because he was extravagantly dressed.

Are we really only saying that people were arrested because they only looked like Hutchinson's man? I don't think we are, because that probably wouldn't be legal in 1888.

Obviously, persons looking like Hutchinson's man took precedence in Abberline's list which is why he questioned them. I doubt Abberline interrogated every person reported to H-division for some unrelated event such as theft.

[Batman]

Also one of the biggest indicators that Hutchinson had given them something to go on was the fact JtR seemed to stop.

Officially he did stop with Kelly.

If Blotchy was JtR, then Hutchinson has given the ripper cover to keep going.

Why does Hutchinson describe a JtR that is dressed totally unlike prior JtR descriptions? What is the benefit of doing that? How does it make his story any more acceptable to have a flashy JtR?

[Sam Flynn]

Are we really only saying that people were arrested because they only looked like Hutchinson's man?

That's not what I'm suggesting.

Obviously, persons looking like Hutchinson's man took precedence in Abberline's list which is why he questioned them.

Abberline didn't question Isaacs because of his appearance. He questioned him because he (Isaacs) had been reported to the police by his doss-house keeper for being a weirdo who kept odd hours during the Ripper murders, and who disappeared immediately after the Kelly murder. Isaacs was a POI in his own right, and Abberline's interest in him is explained by that fact alone, not because Isaacs was wont to sport a pair of button-down boots, a heavy gold watch-chain, horseshoe pin and an astrakhan coat.

Denny was wearing a long astrakhan coat, but I'm not aware that Abberline interviewed him at all, or that "H" Division showed much interest in him either.

[Sam Flynn]

Also one of the biggest indicators that Hutchinson had given them something to go on was the fact JtR seemed to stop.

Well, they wouldn't have known that at the time.

Why does Hutchinson describe a JtR that is dressed totally unlike prior JtR descriptions? What is the benefit of doing that? How does it make his story any more acceptable to have a flashy JtR?

I've long thought that there are elements of Mr Astrakhan to be found in press reports and witness statements relating to the previous murders. Stephen Senise's recent book assembles the evidence very nicely, and he adds rather more examples in support of this idea than I was aware of.

If Blotchy was JtR, then Hutchinson has given the ripper cover to keep going.

If Mr Astrakhan was JTR, then all he had to do is change his coat, hat, jewellery and footwear. From the impression one gets from Hutchinson's statement, finding alternative clobber shouldn't have posed him too many financial issues.

[Batman]

Abberline didn't question Isaacs because of his appearance. He questioned him because he (Isaacs) had been reported to the police by his doss-house keeper for being a weirdo who kept odd hours during the Ripper murders, and who disappeared immediately after the Kelly murder. Isaacs was a POI in his own right, and Abberline's interest in him is explained by that fact alone, not because Isaacs was wont to sport a pair of button-down boots, a heavy gold watch-chain, horseshoe pin and an astrakhan coat.

Abberline obviously thought this was the ripper as per Hutchinson's description as we have a report that he was overhead saying "Keep this quiet - we have got the right man at last. This is a big thing!". It was a combination of Hutchinson and the above that seems to have caused that. Not just someone keeping odd hours who isn't around after Kelly was murdered who stole a watch.

Morning Advertiser 7 Dec treated the whole event as a very serious affair. Abberline was clearly impressed with the find.

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/morning_advertiser/18881207.html

Do you really think Hutchinson's description had nothing to do with that?

[Sam Flynn]

Abberline obviously thought this was the ripper as per Hutchinson's description

Nowhere is he recorded as saying that. All we have is a newspaper report that says Isaacs resembled the man described by Hutch - which could easily have referred to his physiognomy, rather than his dress. As a lowly lodging-house dweller who rolled cigars for a living, it's unlikely that Isaacs would have had such ostentatious accoutrements anyway.

as we have a report that he was overhead saying "Keep this quiet - we have got the right man at last. This is a big thing!".

Notwithstanding that this is only anecdotal, it's hardly surprising that Abberline was excited by Isaacs' being apprehended. This was a man who lodged in Little Paternoster Row (almost literally round the corner from Dorset St), reported to the police by his lodging-house keeper, who said that he behaved oddly, used threatening behaviour against women, kept unusual hours during the WM, and absconded just after the Kelly murder. I think that this "charge-sheet" is quite enough on its own to explain Abberline's enthusiasm... assuming the "we've got the right man at last" anecdote is true.

[Batman]

Well, they wouldn't have known that at the time.
I've long thought that there are elements of Mr Astrakhan to be found in press reports and witness statements relating to the previous murders. Stephen Senise's recent book assembles the evidence very nicely, and he adds rather more examples in support of this idea than I was aware of.If Mr Astrakhan was JTR, then all he had to do is change his coat, hat, jewellery and footwear. From the impression one gets from Hutchinson's statement, finding alternative clobber shouldn't have posed him too many financial issues.

However with each week that passed without a ripper murder, that would have increased confidence in Hutchinson, not decreased it. How could they not to draw that possible correlation?

Mr. Astrakhan is dressed the opposite of every JtR description we have. Which actually leads credence to Hutchinson who seems to have decided upon an extremely odd description... but isn't odd for people who think maybe JtR decided not to go around dressed like a shabby gentile or a sailor with a peak cap because this description was evidently out there in the press.

In fact, it would be pretty silly to go about dressing like every recent drawing put out by the illustrated police news for example.

This is the kind of imagery the press had for JtR...

So JtR dressed up like this instead.

As for carrying a bag like that. All this speaks to is that JtR lived somewhere nearby.

[Batman]

Nowhere is he recorded as saying that. All we have is a newspaper report that says Isaacs resembled the man described by Hutch - which could easily have referred to his physiognomy, rather than his dress. As a lowly lodging-house dweller who rolled cigars for a living, it's unlikely that Isaacs would have had such ostentatious accoutrements anyway.
Notwithstanding that this is only anecdotal, it's hardly surprising that Abberline was excited by Isaacs' being apprehended. This was a man who lodged in Little Paternoster Row (almost literally round the corner from Dorset St), reported to the police by his lodging-house keeper, who said that he behaved oddly, used threatening behaviour against women, kept unusual hours during the WM, and absconded just after the Kelly murder. I think that this "charge-sheet" is quite enough on its own to explain Abberline's enthusiasm... assuming the "we've got the right man at last" anecdote is true.

Do you really think Hutchinson's description had nothing to do with that?

[Sam Flynn]

Do you really think Hutchinson's description had nothing to do with that?

Yes. Thanks to Mrs Cusins, the police had enough on Isaacs to make him a person of significant interest, without Hutchinson's description playing any part at all. Apart, perhaps, from the "foreign looking" bit.

Not many people who were reduced to lodging in one of the poorest - and blackest - streets in Spitalfields would have swanned about in astrakhan coats, bedecked with heavy gold watch-chains, silver tie-pins and natty boots with spats.

[Abby Normal]

so absolutely zero, zilch none, nada documentary evidence that the police were still looking for hutchs suspect after the initial walkabout with hutch and the news reports of the reduced importance and discredited hutch story.

[Batman]

Here is the thing. Once the press had gotten hold of Hutchinson, then the story is out there and what does that mean for a press reading ripper?

It means he has to go to ground and change his appearance. To what? He had done shabby, sailor and flashy.

This could explain why Hutchinson, like Lewende and Schwartz never made much of an appearance if any at all. Lewende shows up for what? Well could be Schwartz, but to look at Sadler and to ID the ripper as Kozminski.

Seems JtR witnesses being interviewed were an obstacle to investigators.

[Abby Normal]

Here is the thing. Once the press had gotten hold of Hutchinson, then the story is out there and what does that mean for a press reading ripper?

It means he has to go to ground and change his appearance. To what? He had done shabby, sailor and flashy.

This could explain why Hutchinson, like Lewende and Schwartz never made much of an appearance if any at all. Lewende shows up for what? Well could be Schwartz, but to look at Sadler and to ID the ripper as Kozminski.

Seems JtR witnesses being interviewed were an obstacle to investigators.

Hi batman
Take hutches fictional Aman out of the picture and pretty much all the witnesses agree he was dressed about the same.
To lawende and company he may have appeared a bit shabby given they may have been a bit prejudiced becuase of there standing and not liking the folks they saw about at night.

Since the ripper was probably in regular employment and had his own place i dont think he would be poor, nor very well off...somewhere in between. And dressed accordingly.

I doubt he really did any dressing up or down..disguising himself..so to speak.

Although he probably ditched the peaked cap after the night of the double event. Lol.

[Batman]

Hi batman
Take hutches fictional Aman out of the picture and pretty much all the witnesses agree he was dressed about the same.
To lawende and company he may have appeared a bit shabby given they may have been a bit prejudiced becuase of there standing and not liking the folks they saw about at night.

Since the ripper was probably in regular employment and had his own place i dont think he would be poor, nor very well off...somewhere in between. And dressed accordingly.

I doubt he really did any dressing up or down..disguising himself..so to speak.

Although he probably ditched the peaked cap after the night of the double event. Lol.

Is he really all that different except for how he is dressed?

Obviously, H-Division didn't want Lewende's sailor description going out, but it did.

There isn't much of anything really about witnesses once the inquests are done and even then it seems some important witnesses are left out.

Hutchinson's vanishing seems no more mysterious when we ask about of the other witnesses except maybe Lewende because he had a look at Sadler.

If we claim Hutchinson was written out, then it seems to apply to all the others also. Quite a few them contribute to the archetypical peak capped dark dressed moustached short JtR.