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  • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    I believe Mr. Flynn was referring to the piece of Kate Eddowe's apron found in Goulston Street, which is east of Mitre Square; so yes, it is generally accepted by a number of leading historians that the Ripper fled deeper into the East End after the Eddowes murder.
    But Goulston Street is still West of Commercial Street, so doesn't such a trajectory point directly toward the Victoria home?

    Comment


    • Beat me to it, Joshua, but spot on.

      I’ll elaborate further later on.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
        I believe Mr. Flynn was referring to the piece of Kate Eddowe's apron found in Goulston Street, which is east of Mitre Square; so yes, it is generally accepted by a number of leading historians that the Ripper fled deeper into the East End after the Eddowes murder.
        But is there a consensus among the experts about the route he took? Couldn't he have sought the nearest point of exit from the City and made for Haydon Square to the south of Goulston Street? And then headed north directly towards Commercial Street?

        I'm not saying he did, but it's surely possible.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
          She usially lived in Great Pearl St, remember, which is about the same distance from the Victoria Home as Mitre Square.
          It's not so much a question of distance, but of the focus of social activity. The lives of the residents of the Spitalfields slums would have revolved around the same streets, pubs and shops. Don't get me wrong - I don't believe for one minute there was a strong chance of Sarah Lewis recognising George Hutchinson, but I'd say there was far greater chance of this happening than of his being recognised by Lawende et al.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • The Ripper's 'trajectory' deeper into the East End after Mitre Square is a solid mark against the Hutchinson theory since Hutch stayed in lodgings near Dorset Street.
            You’re jesting, RJ, surely?

            You do realise that the apron disposal location lay on a direct path of retreat from Mitre Square to Hutchinson’s lodgings at the corner of Wentworth and Commercial Streets? That anyone taking the quickest and most direct route between the two locations would have passed the GSG spot? The Victoria Home was located in the very heart of the district in which the murders were committed, with the sites themselves fanning out in every direction from it. If you know of a suspect or person of interest with a more centrally located bolt hole, do tell.

            I’m afraid your ignorance of East End geography is very much on display here, and it is something I would be more than happy to disabuse you of in the form of a brief tour whenever you’re next in Blighty.

            Why would the Victoria Home’s night deputy single out Hutchinson for investigative scrutiny upon the latter’s arrival post-crime when it accommodated 500 men a night, coming and going at all hours?

            All the best,
            Ben

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
              But Goulston Street is still West of Commercial Street, so doesn't such a trajectory point directly toward the Victoria home?
              Hi Joshua. Correct, but I accept Wickerman's argument that the Victorian home was not Hutchinson's usual lodgings, which I believe were closer to Dorset Street, as judged by his account of his movement on the night of the Kelly murder. I grant you that the precise location is unknown and unknowable.

              Second, don't you think the lodging-house keepers would have been closely questioned by the police following the double event? The most obvious question would have been to ask them about any late night stragglers. Had Hutchinson been one of them ducking in at 1.30 a.m., he would have been questioned, and after his re-emergance following the Kelly murder, his goose would have been cooked. IMHO.

              Comment


              • Does anyone feel that the removal of victim’s body parts, and the subsequent need to ‘store’ them counts against the Ripper living in a communal dosshouse?
                Regards

                Herlock




                “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                Comment


                • Ben - Go back and re-read Wickerman's many posts on Hutchinson's lodgings. I realize it has been stated by nearly every author of the case that Hutchinson's usual lodgings were the Victoria Home, but that does not make them correct; it only makes them guilty of repeating the same error over and over.


                  It is perfectly reasonable that Hutch would have been chased down for an interview at his present known location--the Victoria Working Men's Home. Indeed, as a casual laborer where else could they have found him? Did they aimlessly go poking around the docks or the many stables in the East End? Of course not. And if the interview was conducted in the Victoria Home, why would Hutch have refered to his "usual lodgings" if he was sitting in them at the time?

                  Personally, I think Wick noticed something that had previously gone unnoticed. So no, I don't accept your argument on many levels. Regards.
                  Last edited by rjpalmer; 08-23-2018, 01:04 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                    But Goulston Street is still West of Commercial Street, so doesn't such a trajectory point directly toward the Victoria home?
                    I believe it does, Josh, but he needn't have stopped there, of course That said, I really don't think that he'd have lived too far away from the VH, if not in it.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      Does anyone feel that the removal of victim’s body parts, and the subsequent need to ‘store’ them counts against the Ripper living in a communal dosshouse?
                      Who says he needed to store them in the dosshouse, though? Or store them at all, for that matter.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        Who says he needed to store them in the dosshouse, though? Or store them at all, for that matter.
                        He must have taken them for a reason. He didn’t just lob them over a fence. Surely this hints that he had somewhere more private than a dosshouse?
                        Regards

                        Herlock




                        “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                        “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                        “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                        “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                        “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          Does anyone feel that the removal of victim’s body parts, and the subsequent need to ‘store’ them counts against the Ripper living in a communal dosshouse?
                          You'll have to ask Ben. From an earlier post he seems to believe the Ripper burned his incriminating evidence over a cooking stove in a doss house filled with 500 men.

                          According to Sir Robert Anderson, the police dismissed the common lodging house theory. They concentrated on men with private accomodations or someone protected by his people. Every common lodging house was a crowded nest of potential informers, and the police had plain clothes detectives staying in them. After the Phoenix Park murders in Dublin, Inspector Littlechild himself stayed in common lodging houses for weeks so he could examine the men coming and going. The same would have occurred in 1888. The Kelly murder left no doubt that the murderer would have been bloodstained, yet supposedly Hutch was indoors by 7 a.m. that same morning. Maybe he carried a change of clothes in a trunk on his back during the 12 mile walk from Romford?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                            He must have taken them for a reason. He didn’t just lob them over a fence.
                            What if he committed unspeakable acts with the organs in a quiet spot before throwing them into a dark corner, at the mercy of neighbourhood cats, dogs and rats. A piece of fresh meat wouldn't have lasted long on those streets, believe me.
                            Surely this hints that he had somewhere more private than a dosshouse?
                            Even people in doss-houses can find hiding-places to revisit, and not all lodging-houses were as impersonal as others.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                              The Kelly murder left no doubt that the murderer would have been bloodstained, yet supposedly Hutch was indoors by 7 a.m. that same morning. Maybe he carried a change of clothes in a trunk on his back during the 12 mile walk from Romford?
                              Funnily enough, I came across this from the Pall Mall Gazette 14 Nov, earlier;

                              "A paragraph in the morning papers states that the police have received from Mr. Samuel Osborne, wire worker, 20, Garden row, London road, a statement to the effect that he was walking along St. Paul's churchyard yesterday behind a respectably dressed man, when a parcel, wrapped in a newspaper, fell from the man's coat. Osborne told him that he had dropped something; but the man denied that the parcel belonged to him. Osborne picked up the parcel, and found that it contained a knife, having a peculiarly shaped handle and a thick blade, six or seven inches long, with stains upon it resembling blood. The parcel also contained a brown kid glove, smeared with similar stains on both sides. Osborne found a constable, and together they searched for the mysterious individual, but without success. The parcel, says the paragraph, was handed to the City police authorities, "who, however, attach no importance to the matter." What on earth could be more important, after the statement made by the man Hutchinson and quoted above?"

                              Anyone know if there were any further developments on this find?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by harry View Post
                                Jon,
                                Where do you get this,' Specific instructions 'from? .It is the judge,representing the court, who decides on what evidence is admitted,and how it is given by the witness.When a witness gives a narrative account, it is usually by request,not by instruction.
                                It is an instruction to the witness to speak freely and relate how events unfolded, instead of waiting for specific questions.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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