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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    Confusing the meaning of today's expressions with the dialogue of 19th century England causes other problems too. Meanings change over time.

    We've debated the word "opposite" before because it also used to mean 'directly in front of', in Victorian England.
    We've seen Bowyer being criticized for lying about seeing Kelly on a Wednesday "afternoon". What current members didn't realize is "afternoon" was often used for 'evening' in Vic. England.
    "Going abroad" is another expression, today's CB members believed the suspect went overseas, this was not the case in Vic. England. It also meant going outside their local area.
    There are so many examples...
    Very good points, I think it's something that a lot of us don't take into context (I know I'm especially guilty of it). When we read something from another age, most of the time we read and understand it in the context of todays modern writing. But, in fact when it was written it could have meant another thing completely.
    Although I'm not certain one way to the other about if the street was empty or not, its still a good idea for other pieces of witness testimony

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    • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
      And we are supposed to accept that not a single person was seen in this street from 2:00 till 3:00 am?
      But that's not the case. Lewis saw three people at 2:30, and the other female witnesses reported no others. (I discount "Kennedy", but even she only says she saw a couple of people.) Hutchinson claims he saw four people, including Kelly and Astrakhan. It was hardly a hive of activity, but people were seen during those times.
      Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-07-2018, 12:32 AM.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • Originally posted by RedBundy13 View Post
        I'm with you. Either that or what Jon said about her looking for her 15 minutes. That would have been a REAL risk for the Ripper to murder her, especially how he did it, at that time of morning. Someone easily could have stopped by or just peaked through the window in which case it would have been Game Over. And thats not even mentioning how he'd possibly get out and away un-noticed.
        Hi red

        I try not to go down the 15 minutes of fame bit with witnesses if there is no other evidence theyre making things up. I think that happens way too much in ripperworld by people trying to fit up theyre theories.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          But that's not the case. Lewis saw three people at 2:30, and the other female witnesses reported no others. (I discount "Kennedy", but even she only says she saw a couple of people.) Hutchinson claims he saw four people, including Kelly and Astrakhan. It was hardly a hive of activity, but people were seen during those times.
          There's a similar incident with Cadosch on the morning of Chapman's murder.
          It's not the same as with Hutchinson, but it is similar.

          Cadosch is questioned by Coroner Baxter:

          "The Coroner - Did you see a man or woman in the street?"

          His replies vary in the press coverage, but one has him responding:

          "He saw no man or woman in Hanbury-street, when he went out".

          Five-thirty in the morning should be the time when people are leaving for work, especially as Spitalfields Market is just around the corner. It is inexplicable that no-one would be in the street.

          As it turns out this press account was not complete, the reporter did not use Cadosch's entire statement.

          In the London Evening Standard we read a more complete response:

          "I did not see any man and woman in the street when I went out, I did not see Mrs. Long, one of the witnesses here today. I saw a workman passing by on the other side"

          The Morning Advertiser worded that last line a little different:
          "No, I only saw workmen passing by to their work".

          Now, bear in mind, the report from Hutchinson was a press report - so we should also question whether Hutchinson's response in that report was also not complete.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            But that's not the case. Lewis saw three people at 2:30, and the other female witnesses reported no others. (I discount "Kennedy", but even she only says she saw a couple of people.) Hutchinson claims he saw four people, including Kelly and Astrakhan. It was hardly a hive of activity, but people were seen during those times.
            Might be an idea to go back and read ALL of Wicky's post.
            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
              This is Dorset St., over 250 beds for dossers, round-the-clock scuffles & street fights, unfortunates coming and going, lodging-houses open till 4:00 am, not forgetting Cox came in at 3:00.
              And we are supposed to accept that not a single person was seen in this street from 2:00 till 3:00 am?

              No.
              Might be overdoing it with the "round-the-clock scuffles and street fights".
              My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

              Comment


              • Originally posted by RedBundy13 View Post
                ...

                So, Question? Can we disregard her testimony as to her having either mistaken Kelly for someone else or just got the day wrong (or maybe just the time)? Or is there anyone who believes her statement? Or maybe just some of the statement? Or just wants to keep the door open for possible future references and isn't quite ready to completely discount her testimony.
                Getting the day wrong would be a stretch considering there's a higher likelihood of remembering seeing a woman only hours before her death. If she knew of Mary's murder the day it occurred, she might be likely to say "But I just saw her this morning" rather than "I just saw her this morning. Or was it yesterday. Or the day before."

                I like rj's and Abby's posts. I'm down to she saw Mary, saw someone she thought was Mary, or falsified her story. Seeing Mary at 8a is no help bc it still leaves a 2 and a half hour gap in time where a killer as fast as Jack the Ripper could possibly commit his crime.
                there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

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                • Seem to remember that Jack had a time machine and had been on holidays at San Francisco in 1979.
                  Would explain a lot
                  My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                  Comment


                  • Any Opinions on this witness.

                    I have a few possibles would like to know if anybody else has come across these.

                    1st is a Henry Hutchinson in 1891 census in Camden Town Workhouse who is a groom /Horse keeper. Born 1852 in the city of London

                    The next might interest you Dave... George Hutchinson Clerkenwell court, 16th June 1873. Larceny from a ship and receiving....Acquitted...

                    Pat....

                    Comment


                    • Thanks Paddy.

                      I'm sticking with the 22 year old sailor having the experience to be a personal groom.

                      Military bearing and the unexplained boy living with him being the important reasons.
                      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

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                      • Things that I find interesting are ......

                        he stood outside one of the lodging houses of William Crossingham from Romford

                        Caroline Maxwell was an employee

                        William's daughter married Mary Kelly's landlord's brother two years later

                        Shades of "The Usual Suspects" and "Mister Buddwing".
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                          Things that I find interesting are ......

                          he stood outside one of the lodging houses of William Crossingham from Romford

                          Caroline Maxwell was an employee

                          William's daughter married Mary Kelly's landlord's brother two years later

                          Shades of "The Usual Suspects" and "Mister Buddwing".
                          Wasn't Crossingham actually living in Dorset St at the time?

                          Comment


                          • Haven't got that in front of me right now. PC died.

                            Possibly at 20. Previously at 16.
                            My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                            Comment


                            • My parents and grandparents were victorian.Never knew them to mix up afternoon with evening.The period between 5 oclock and 6 oclock might be spoken of as late afternoon or early evening.
                              As to persons being out in numbers in the early hours,what was there for them to do at that time.Aimlessly walk the streets?
                              One didn't have to live in London to have an idea of persons habits.Those that had work,except for nightworkers,had to have sleep.Those with no work never had the moneyto socialise in the early hours.I am not surprised there would be few about after midnight.

                              Comment


                              • 16 minutes past eight in the afternoon.
                                31 minutes past 9 in the afternoon.



                                ...eight o'clock in the afternoon.



                                ...again, eight o'clock in the afternoon.


                                etc...etc...
                                Regards, Jon S.

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