Possible reason for Hutch coming forward

[Abby Normal]

Beats me, Abby. You're dead right about Maxwell and TOD though, he goes on to say;

"Indeed, if the medical evidence is accepted, Mrs. Maxwell could not have been right. The doctors were unable, because of the terrible mutilations, to say with any certainty just when death took place, but they were very emphatic that the girl could not have been alive at eight o'clock that morning.

And if Mrs. Maxwell was mistaken, is it not probable that George Hutchison erred also? This, without reflecting in any way on either witness, is my considered view. I believe that the man of the billycock hat and beard was the last person to enter Marie Kelly's room that night and was her killer. Always assuming that Mrs. Cox ever had seen her with a man."

Perhaps like us he was just trying to rationalise the initial police belief in the suspect with the subsequent seeming abandonment of him as a suspect?

Yeah. And also that blotchy was the killer.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi JR
I can see how he would have thought Maxwell was wrong, as TOD and the screams of murder were in the middle of the night. But why should he suspect hutch was wrong? he saw a suspicious person with her in the middle of the night.

Beats me, Abby. You're dead right about Maxwell and TOD though, he goes on to say;

"Indeed, if the medical evidence is accepted, Mrs. Maxwell could not have been right. The doctors were unable, because of the terrible mutilations, to say with any certainty just when death took place, but they were very emphatic that the girl could not have been alive at eight o'clock that morning.

And if Mrs. Maxwell was mistaken, is it not probable that George Hutchison erred also? This, without reflecting in any way on either witness, is my considered view. I believe that the man of the billycock hat and beard was the last person to enter Marie Kelly's room that night and was her killer. Always assuming that Mrs. Cox ever had seen her with a man."

Perhaps like us he was just trying to rationalise the initial police belief in the suspect with the subsequent seeming abandonment of him as a suspect?

[Abby Normal]

And if his story was a lie,or recanted it was the wrong day, the worst they could accuse him was he was a nuisance,after all there was no law - only in
courts, and it was not unusual, he'll be considered like the rest of the witnessess who reported "suspicious" men or the drunk or two? who came to the station and proclaim they were the murderer - "helpful"/nuisance witnesses were part of the murder series.Think about it,if Hutch was an upstanding person,his Romford visit,etc. checked out to be true,the Astakhan man was not going to be a prime suspect?,the last man seen entering Kelly's room an hour before the 4:00 AM. estimated murder time.And Hutch a prime witness?, his sighting was 15 minutes long,the rest of the witnessess
arguably only 10-15-30 seconds.
It's clear in the end (up to the year the case was closed) the police did not believe him.Even Dew remembered it as such and nobody remembered Astra man as a prime suspect.
Abberline made a mistake in believing Hutch - it would have been the 1st time a detective made a mistake,even today with polygraph tests.

bingo!

[Abby Normal]

Just to add, Dew didn't think Hutchinson was lying, but concluded he was mistaken about the date of his sighting;

"But I know from my experience that many people, with the best of intentions, are often mistaken, not necessarily as to a person, but as to date and time. And I can see no other explanation in this case than that Mrs. Maxwell and George Hutchison were wrong."

Hi JR
I can see how he would have thought Maxwell was wrong, as TOD and the screams of murder were in the middle of the night. But why should he suspect hutch was wrong? he saw a suspicious person with her in the middle of the night.

[Joshua Rogan]

It's clear in the end (up to the year the case was closed) the police did not believe him.Even Dew remembered it as such and nobody remembered Astra man as a prime suspect.

Just to add, Dew didn't think Hutchinson was lying, but concluded he was mistaken about the date of his sighting;

"But I know from my experience that many people, with the best of intentions, are often mistaken, not necessarily as to a person, but as to date and time. And I can see no other explanation in this case than that Mrs. Maxwell and George Hutchison were wrong."

[Varqm]

Hi Caz,

I wonder how many Ripperologists have actually spent a night on the streets? Precious few, I imagine, or they wouldn't find Hutchinson's behavior so suspicious.

The only thing Hutchinson was killing was time. He missed his curfew and was now stuck on the street for a tedious six hours...waiting waiting waiting for the sun to come up.

Standing across from Millers Court for 45 mintues?

Big deal. The building had an awning on it. It was November and spitting rain off and on. A perfect place to stand.

Further, he had just seen Kelly with an obviously wealthy client. If she was suddenly 'in clover' he knows--or hopes--he can borrow a few p when the coffee stalls open back up.

It's really not all that hard to figure out, is it?

That's what he is telling Abbeline. He doesn't need to spell it out. He lent HER a few pence on occasion, and now he wants some in return. Surely this toff will pay well. And tomorrow is Lord Mayor's Day, after all. No one is more 'into' these civic holidays than the abject poor who have nothing else to look forward to. It would be simply too bloody tomorrow if he can't scrounge up enough for a pint or a pinch of tobacco.

So, with nothing else better to do, he waits.

People in the lowest 'strata' have a sort of informal 'code' of borrowing and scrounging to help each other out. And there was probably no worse scrounge than the unemployed male in the East End who must have been forever trying to squeeze the 'unfortunates' who had one sure way of coming up with 3 p.

Abberline wasn't the least bit suspicious because he shouldn't have been. H Division was his turf for years and he knew it all too well.

And yes, of course, in the back of his mind, if the rain turned really bad, Hutch was hoping in his heart of hearts that he might spend a couple of hours indoors with a not bad looking Irish prostitute.

Nothing unusual about any of it. Except the client.

And if his story was a lie,or recanted it was the wrong day, the worst they could accuse him was he was a nuisance,after all there was no law - only in
courts, and it was not unusual, he'll be considered like the rest of the witnessess who reported "suspicious" men or the drunk or two? who came to the station and proclaim they were the murderer - "helpful"/nuisance witnesses were part of the murder series.Think about it,if Hutch was an upstanding person,his Romford visit,etc. checked out to be true,the Astakhan man was not going to be a prime suspect?,the last man seen entering Kelly's room an hour before the 4:00 AM. estimated murder time.And Hutch a prime witness?, his sighting was 15 minutes long,the rest of the witnessess
arguably only 10-15-30 seconds.
It's clear in the end (up to the year the case was closed) the police did not believe him.Even Dew remembered it as such and nobody remembered Astra man as a prime suspect.
Abberline made a mistake in believing Hutch - it would have been the 1st time a detective made a mistake,even today with polygraph tests.

[Robert St Devil]

Considering her supposed lengthy absence and recent return to the oldest profession, would Hutch have known Mary Jane to be a prostitute? Would it have surprised him to see Mary Jane out "walking the streets" with strange men since she had been with Barnett only a week prior? I would've expected one of the questions asked of Hutchinson by the police was whether or not she solicited him.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Caz,

I wonder how many Ripperologists have actually spent a night on the streets? Precious few, I imagine, or they wouldn't find Hutchinson's behavior so suspicious.

The only thing Hutchinson was killing was time. He missed his curfew and was now stuck on the street for a tedious six hours...waiting waiting waiting for the sun to come up.

Standing across from Millers Court for 45 mintues?

Big deal. The building had an awning on it. It was November and spitting rain off and on. A perfect place to stand.

Further, he had just seen Kelly with an obviously wealthy client. If she was suddenly 'in clover' he knows--or hopes--he can borrow a few p when the coffee stalls open back up.

It's really not all that hard to figure out, is it?

That's what he is telling Abbeline. He doesn't need to spell it out. He lent HER a few pence on occasion, and now he wants some in return. Surely this toff will pay well. And tomorrow is Lord Mayor's Day, after all. No one is more 'into' these civic holidays than the abject poor who have nothing else to look forward to. It would be simply too bloody tomorrow if he can't scrounge up enough for a pint or a pinch of tobacco.

So, with nothing else better to do, he waits.

People in the lowest 'strata' have a sort of informal 'code' of borrowing and scrounging to help each other out. And there was probably no worse scrounge than the unemployed male in the East End who must have been forever trying to squeeze the 'unfortunates' who had one sure way of coming up with 3 p.

Abberline wasn't the least bit suspicious because he shouldn't have been. H Division was his turf for years and he knew it all too well.

And yes, of course, in the back of his mind, if the rain turned really bad, Hutch was hoping in his heart of hearts that he might spend a couple of hours indoors with a not bad looking Irish prostitute.

Nothing unusual about any of it. Except the client.

Hi RJ
Interesting post and good insight. The last sentence was rather cryptic though. Care to expound?

[rjpalmer]

There had to be more to it

Hi Caz,

I wonder how many Ripperologists have actually spent a night on the streets? Precious few, I imagine, or they wouldn't find Hutchinson's behavior so suspicious.

The only thing Hutchinson was killing was time. He missed his curfew and was now stuck on the street for a tedious six hours...waiting waiting waiting for the sun to come up.

Standing across from Millers Court for 45 mintues?

Big deal. The building had an awning on it. It was November and spitting rain off and on. A perfect place to stand.

Further, he had just seen Kelly with an obviously wealthy client. If she was suddenly 'in clover' he knows--or hopes--he can borrow a few p when the coffee stalls open back up.

It's really not all that hard to figure out, is it?

That's what he is telling Abbeline. He doesn't need to spell it out. He lent HER a few pence on occasion, and now he wants some in return. Surely this toff will pay well. And tomorrow is Lord Mayor's Day, after all. No one is more 'into' these civic holidays than the abject poor who have nothing else to look forward to. It would be simply too bloody tomorrow if he can't scrounge up enough for a pint or a pinch of tobacco.

So, with nothing else better to do, he waits.

People in the lowest 'strata' have a sort of informal 'code' of borrowing and scrounging to help each other out. And there was probably no worse scrounge than the unemployed male in the East End who must have been forever trying to squeeze the 'unfortunates' who had one sure way of coming up with 3 p.

Abberline wasn't the least bit suspicious because he shouldn't have been. H Division was his turf for years and he knew it all too well.

And yes, of course, in the back of his mind, if the rain turned really bad, Hutch was hoping in his heart of hearts that he might spend a couple of hours indoors with a not bad looking Irish prostitute.

Nothing unusual about any of it. Except the client.

[Michael W Richards]

But that is modern guesswork. We have no written record of any investigation into Hutchinson's movements.
So the chance they may have been able to corroborate his story is purely 50/50, maybe yes, maybe no.
The point is, they still believed his story in the first week of December.

The fact that we have no investigation data does suggest they took this statement at face value, and the subsequent reposition of A man vs Blotchy as the "suspect of interest" that week suggests they did investigate his suspect. The mention of him later in December is contrasted by the report the same week as the statement that they came to disbelieve his story Jon. The December mention of him has as much investigative value as the reports that Israels suspect was still viable long after the Inquest. Which is little to none. Clearly, by the lack of any evidence that would suggest, infer or allude to Israels story being relevant to the matter at hand dealt with at the Inquest, his suspect was not of any importance to the investigation.

Because someone offers a later opinion on the viability of witness's suspect sighting long after that suspects sighting is being used in the active investigation doesn't mean it holds any water. The existing records discount those assertions.

Hutch's suspect was discarded that same week, and Israels suspect was never considered as viable in the formal documentation of the Inquest. Interesting that in both cases....no-one saw or identified them as being there at all, no-one corroborates their stories, and both came in after the fact, being totally unknown to the police at that time.

In Hutchs case, his statement turned the lurking wideawake into a friend looking out for the victim, and Israels story leads one to believe that he saw the woman with her anti semetic killer being physical off the property she is found on... minutes before she is killed, in essence exonerating the Jewish population still onsite.

Both stories have the fortuitous angle covered in spades. I exonerates the potential Accomplice, surely the source of the Pardon issuance Saturday, and one story exonerates jewish anarchists belonging to a club of assumed low esteem by the neighbors and police.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve always been suspicious of Hutchinson as a witness. The phrase ‘too good to be true’ comes to mind. The part about him stooping down to look into Astrakhan Man’s face doesn’t ring true for me. It’s not a normal thing to do by anyone’s standards. Combine that with the highly detailed description he gave gives me the impression of someone trying too hard to convince that he knew exactly what the ripper looked like. Thoughts of a being ‘the man who knows what the ripper looked like’ would be a tempting incentive to tell a few undisprovable porkies. If he was telling the truth then we surely must consider AM as an unlikely Jack. It’s hard to see the ripper going on to kill Mary after being scrutinised so closely whilst in her company.

[caz]

There are multiple scenarios that could have happened, but to me the most likely is that Hutch was looking for a place to crash and/or hook up with mary, never actually saw her that night, and waited/watched for her (this is where Lewis saw him) either for her to be finished with her guest (probably Blotchy) or less likely, if not home, for her return.

That works for me too, Abby. Hutch may have been understandably reluctant to admit to the above and therefore gave an account which involved someone else 'hooking' up with Kelly. He couldn't say that the man he described looked sinister, or he'd have looked really bad for giving up and walking away after 45 minutes without checking she was okay.

What I still don't buy is that Abberline wouldn't have winkled more out of Hutch about his real reasons for waiting there that long. A simple desire to see the man again just doesn't wash. He had supposedly drunk in every last inch of him the first time! There had to be more to it, whether he had intended to mug the man, or share Kelly's room when she was alone again, or both.

Love,

Caz
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[Abby Normal]

Right, I get you now, Abby. I was assuming that when you allowed for Hutch being 'just an attention seeker', you allowed for him not actually being there at all.

I do wonder what kind of mentality he'd have had to come forward 'just' to seek attention, by admitting to what you call stalking behaviour, if he was genuinely there and had been seen lurking near the crime scene by a witness! There's a fine line between bravado and sheer stupidity.

Love,

Caz
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Thanks Caz
yes, I agree, and especially if he was the killer! But I don't see it as ruling him out whether he was just an attention seeker or the killer.

gun to head, I would say more than likely he was just an attention seeker. But I would also say Aman story was a lie.

There are multiple scenarios that could have happened, but to me the most likely is that Hutch was looking for a place to crash and/or hook up with mary, never actually saw her that night, and waited/watched for her (this is where Lewis saw him) either for her to be finished with her guest (probably Blotchy) or less likely, if not home, for her return.

at the bottom of the list of likelihood scenarios, for me, is that his story was pretty much accurate as told, especially the Aman story. that part IMHO is a lie.

[caz]

Hi caz
Whether he was just an attention seeker or the killer, he still engaged in stalking behavior. Lewis corroborates it as he was the waiting watching man by his own admission. He didn’t need to hear about Lewis testimony from inquest, since he was there he knew she had spotted him.

Right, I get you now, Abby. I was assuming that when you allowed for Hutch being 'just an attention seeker', you allowed for him not actually being there at all.

I do wonder what kind of mentality he'd have had to come forward 'just' to seek attention, by admitting to what you call stalking behaviour, if he was genuinely there and had been seen lurking near the crime scene by a witness! There's a fine line between bravado and sheer stupidity.

Love,

Caz
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[caz]

My apologies Caz, and to Abby.

If you would read again my suggestion that Hutchs statement created the illusion at least that the man watching the courtyard, the one that is partly if not fully responsible for the Accomplices issuance on Saturday afternoon, was actually a friend of Marys. Just keeping an eye on her.

I don't think we can say Hutch was cleared, he was never openly investigated to our knowledge. May be lost files, maybe not. But the point is that his account makes Wideawake benign. Something he wasnt on Saturday.

Hi Michael,

But Hutch wasn't 'just keeping an eye on' Kelly, according to his own account. Very far from it. His eye was wholly kept on the man she had picked up with, according to his claimed ability to describe him down to the last tiny detail. His excuse for waiting 45 minutes in the vicinity was not to keep an eye on Kelly at all, but to see the man again, for no stated reason apart from idle curiosity. Hutch said he gave up waiting and walked off, apparently with no desire to see how Kelly was doing. In fact he claimed afterwards to have had no suspicions that the man might pose any danger to Kelly. Whether the man had emerged or not, Hutch would have needed to go into that room himself in order to 'keep an eye on' Kelly and see if she was sleeping peacefully, in danger of choking on her vomit or ripped up to shreds.

Love,

Caz
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