Originally posted by Wickerman
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostThe good news is that I don't subscribe to that view, CD. One doesn't need to be incompetent to be taken in by a plausible liar - I'm sure that an experienced detective like George Oldfield wasn't incompetent at all, but he and some of his colleagues were well taken in by the "Wearside Jack" hoax letters and tape recording.
As with any investigation, whether it be ancient historical analysis or more recent murder investigations, the only credible arguments come from the evidence - not from idle speculation.
Let the evidence speak for itself, do not replace the evidence with conjecture - but that is precisely what the 'anti-Hutchinson' crowd are and have been doing from day one!
There is not, nor has there ever been, any indication Hutchinson lied, or made anything up. This is idle speculation. What exists in the court records & press testimony from the inquest, plus witness statements in the press is all we have by way of evidence.
The 'anti-Hutchinson' crowd, dismiss what doesn't support their theories in favor of idle speculation, but criticize bonafide arguments based on the existing evidence. That is the topsy-turvy world of Casebook, and one of the significant reasons the more knowledgeable authors no longer frequent Casebook.Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostBowyer was no young man at the time. I wonder if newspaper reports like these were the source of Walter Dew's incorrect belief that Bowyer was a "youth"?Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostI think the point that several of us have been at pains to hi-lite is, that these personal suspicions like "you think" he lied, are nothing more than guesswork.
For the record, I do not "guess", nor do I "idly speculate". If I believe something, then it's usually because I've given it years and years of thought. I also resent the implication that I am somehow partly responsible for "one of the significant reasons [why] the more knowledgeable authors no longer frequent Casebook". The latter is probably because of the sometimes adversarial nature of the postings of some of the otherwise knowledgeable authors who DO post here, but it's more likely due to the fact that the more knowledgeable authors have other things to do.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostIt is emphatically not guesswork or "idle speculation", Jon. Hutchinson's actions, as he recounts them, are bizarre, his story is incredibly (as in "unbelievably") detailed and some of it has parallels with what had been circulating in the press - and on the streets - throughout the Autumn of Terror.I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostI think the point that several of us have been at pains to hi-lite is, that these personal suspicions like "you think" he lied, are nothing more than guesswork.
As with any investigation, whether it be ancient historical analysis or more recent murder investigations, the only credible arguments come from the evidence - not from idle speculation.
Let the evidence speak for itself, do not replace the evidence with conjecture - but that is precisely what the 'anti-Hutchinson' crowd are and have been doing from day one!
There is not, nor has there ever been, any indication Hutchinson lied, or made anything up. This is idle speculation. What exists in the court records & press testimony from the inquest, plus witness statements in the press is all we have by way of evidence.
The 'anti-Hutchinson' crowd, dismiss what doesn't support their theories in favor of idle speculation, but criticize bonafide arguments based on the existing evidence. That is the topsy-turvy world of Casebook, and one of the significant reasons the more knowledgeable authors no longer frequent Casebook."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Bridewell View PostHowever unbelievable Hutchinson's account may be to the modern reader, the fact is that Abberline recorded, in writing, that he was 'of opinion his (Hutchinson's) story is true'. It may have been true or it may not. When first given however - to a police officer who knew the ground as well as anyone - the account was believed. It may have been false, and the belief may or may not have persisted. Clearly though, as it was believed when given, it was not 'unbelievable'.
That’s true but many things are originally believed until further info or circumstances come into play. One has to take into account everything like the later news accounts that discount his story, dews later recollection that hutch was mistaken and most telling to me any way, Aberlines later recollections that are devoid of anything hutch/ Aman and balance it with the later things that point to hutches truthfulness, like later accounts of the police still looking for a man, the toppling story etc, and try to come to a sensible conclusion."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostIt is emphatically not guesswork or "idle speculation", Jon. Hutchinson's actions, as he recounts them, are bizarre, his story is incredibly (as in "unbelievably") detailed and some of it has parallels with what had been circulating in the press - and on the streets - throughout the Autumn of Terror.
Your interpretation is subjective because it is based on nothing tangible - just your gut feeling.
You admitted yourself that you think he made the whole thing up. In spite of the fact Lewis saw the same couple, at the same time, walk up the court while this loiterer was present. That is evidence, but you reject it, and in favor of what?
Conjecture.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
For the record, I do not "guess", nor do I "idly speculate". If I believe something, then it's usually because I've given it years and years of thought.
Gareth, giving this issue years of thought doesn't mean your conclusion cannot be speculation.
You do not believe him because you have no firsthand knowledge of the nightlife and what class of people came and went throughout any given night, or what attire they wore.
Yet, you reject the opinion of someone who did have this firsthand knowledge (Abberline). And the best justification you can offer is that "people make mistakes"?
You think your lack of knowledge is superior to someone with proven knowledge. How does that make any sense?
I also resent the implication that I am somehow partly responsible for "one of the significant reasons [why] the more knowledgeable authors no longer frequent Casebook".
This has been going on for well over a decade, yet none of these 'anti-Hutchinson' proponents can even agree on what he is supposed to have lied about, or what he is supposed to have done wrong.
Disorganized nit-picking is probably the best summary of the complaints against Hutchinson.Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostHi Robert.
My apologies, on reflection it might be fair to admit I unjustly focused on that one question of yours.
It's just that we've been down that road before, the time of Hutch's sighting at "two o'clock", a "respectably dressed man", who "approached the victim", plus a few other minor details can be read in the Saturday press. Which convinced one member that she had solved the problem - Hutchinson compiled his story from bits & pieces he gleaned from the Saturday press.
A right load of codswallop, to put it bluntly. Your remark just struck a cord, if you get what I mean.
Sorry about that.
Gotcha. Nothing really sticks out to me against Hutchinson, and it seems like it was the police who put George in the spotlight when they forwarded his statement up the chain of command post haste. It seems to me like he was just offering the piece of information that he knew to the police station; next thing he knows, he's talking with Abberline and his name's in the press a few days later. One thing, The Times have him stating that he identified Mary at the Shoreditch mortuary. Would he have had to offer some proof of acquaintance (ie general description) before he gained that type of access from the authorities?there,s nothing new, only the unexplored
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostBut Gareth, that is exactly what speculation is.
Your interpretation is subjective because it is based on nothing tangible - just your gut feeling.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostNot only is that a Weasley cheap shot that isn’t even true, but rich coming from you who cherry pick news reports, no matter how ridiculously obvious that they are erroneous, to fit into your well dressed man legendarium and then constantly spout this misleading nonsense ad nauseum as if it were fact.
That is not cherry-picking, are you sure you even know what cherry-picking is?
When these same reports identify a respectably dressed man, then obviously it isn't me who is forming the theory, the issue existed at the time.
As Macdonald demonstrated a specific interest in that Britannia-man, and this same Britannia-man is identified in the press as one of the three suspects, along with Blotchy & Astrachan, then this is just another example of your blind approach to the problem, or you are not as well informed as you pretend to be.Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostNot "gut feeling" at all. I studied experimental method for three years as part of my degree course. I know the difference between empiricism and subjectivity. That's not to say that I'm right, but I am at least capable of distinguishing subjectivity from objectivity.Regards, Jon S.
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostWell, your opinion is not the result of empiricism as you have no firsthand experience, and you seemingly reject alternative explanations for Hutchinson's story, so you cannot be accused of being objective, so what is left?Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Wickerman View PostI "use" news reports. You "reject" news reports.
That is not cherry-picking, are you sure you even know what cherry-picking is?
When these same reports identify a respectably dressed man, then obviously it isn't me who is forming the theory, the issue existed at the time.
As Macdonald demonstrated a specific interest in that Britannia-man, and this same Britannia-man is identified in the press as one of the three suspects, along with Blotchy & Astrachan, then this is just another example of your blind approach to the problem, or you are not as well informed as you pretend to be."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Robert St Devil View PostGotcha. Nothing really sticks out to me against Hutchinson, and it seems like it was the police who put George in the spotlight when they forwarded his statement up the chain of command post haste. It seems to me like he was just offering the piece of information that he knew to the police station; next thing he knows, he's talking with Abberline and his name's in the press a few days later. One thing, The Times have him stating that he identified Mary at the Shoreditch mortuary. Would he have had to offer some proof of acquaintance (ie general description) before he gained that type of access from the authorities?
I wonder if the Inquest had lasted a few days when he might have come in.
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