Hutchinsons statement....

[Joshua Rogan]

We don't know if the debt was genuine though, or just a ploy by McCarthy to get some cash out of her relatives when they come to her funeral.
Usually, family like to settle matters, public image and all that....
He may have been just a tad opportunistic.

I find it hard to believe someone would be quite that cynical, Jon, but I suppose it's possible McCarthy tried to profit from her death. There is a report of him saying he had lost 3 or 4 tenants in the days after the murder (not sure if that includes Kelly) so he was out of pocket. But if the relatives got wind of the debt, that might explain why they never showed up for her funeral, despite being expected.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It's been suggested that McCarthy was a bit more lenient to Kelly than he might have been to other tenants. Can't think why?

Regards

HS

[Wickerman]

It's been suggested that McCarthy was a bit more lenient to Kelly than he might have been to other tenants. Can't think why?

Regards

HS

But what is that suggestion based on?

[Flower and Dean]

Does anyone really think that Astrakhan Man after being seen with MJK by Hutchinson who, according to him, actually stopped to look into his face, would then go on to murder her?

Regards

HS

I could excuse myself too as I don't know if Astrakhan Man was the killer or even existed at all but I'll bite.

Perhaps Astrakhan Man didn't care that someone looked at his face. If he had somewhere to hide out or was just passing through, he could have reasonably guessed that nobody would have immediately recognised him. Maybe he hoped that Hutchinson was drunk, or just curious, and wouldn't be able to describe him or put two and two together.

Of course, I'm not really sure.

[Joshua Rogan]

The horse and groom is still in existence as a Public House, it's now called the Bar Locks, had a drink in there quite a few times.

Yes, seeminngly it does still exist.

http://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Whitechapel/ChurchLane21.shtml

[Paddy]

Am I the only one that doesn't find Astrakhan mans dress unusual ?
There were many many Eastern European furriers and their relations living in the East End. The weather had turned and I believe Asrakhan collared coats would have been seen quite a bit. Maybe even borrowed from relations. When I asked my aunt what my grandfather was like she said he was like a jew. Smart , Walked Sharp with a large overcoat.
I am sure many were not so ragged.
Yeh I find the spats a bit odd though......

Pat.....

[GUT]

Am I the only one that doesn't find Astrakhan mans dress unusual ?
There were many many Eastern European furriers and their relations living in the East End. The weather had turned and I believe Asrakhan collared coats would have been seen quite a bit. Maybe even borrowed from relations. When I asked my aunt what my grandfather was like she said he was like a jew. Smart , Walked Sharp with a large overcoat.
I am sure many were not so ragged.
Yeh I find the spats a bit odd though......

Pat.....

No Pat I've never understood all the "it's impossible" for a variety of reasons.

[Wickerman]

Am I the only one that doesn't find Astrakhan mans dress unusual ?
There were many many Eastern European furriers and their relations living in the East End. The weather had turned and I believe Asrakhan collared coats would have been seen quite a bit. Maybe even borrowed from relations. When I asked my aunt what my grandfather was like she said he was like a jew. Smart , Walked Sharp with a large overcoat.
I am sure many were not so ragged.
Yeh I find the spats a bit odd though......

Pat.....

His attire is not unusual, not even for that time of night.
No amount of huffing & puffing will ever change that. It's just that posters who understand this rarely speak up.

[Scott Nelson]

OK then, I guess I should post more. Or not?

[Sam Flynn]

Yeh I find the spats a bit odd though......

Don't forget the jewellery.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But what is that suggestion based on?

I just recall it being posited a few years ago. It may have been in pre-online Ripperologist. It's just that times were tough and, as we know, people were turned away from lodging houses for not having the price of a bed so it seems strange that McCarthy would allow Kelly to get weeks behind in her rent when he could have chucked her and her property out in 10 minutes and probably had someone else occupying the room just as quickly.
I'm not particularly suggesting anything. Just seems a bit strange.

Regards

HS

[Herlock Sholmes]

I could excuse myself too as I don't know if Astrakhan Man was the killer or even existed at all but I'll bite.

Perhaps Astrakhan Man didn't care that someone looked at his face. If he had somewhere to hide out or was just passing through, he could have reasonably guessed that nobody would have immediately recognised him. Maybe he hoped that Hutchinson was drunk, or just curious, and wouldn't be able to describe him or put two and two together.

Of course, I'm not really sure.

True of course. I just feel that Jack didn't avoid being caught by being reckless to the possibility of being recognised. When I say 'recognised' I don't mean that someone knew him; just that someone might recognise him as the bloke that they saw near Miller's Court with MJK.

Regards

HS

[Abby Normal]

We only have his word for that.Not sure where the "military bearing" description comes from. I've looked for a contemporary source, but can't find it - perhaps someone else has the source to hand?

In any case, I've no doubt whatsoever that George Hutchinson was George William Topping Hutchinson, and that he was never in the army as far as I know.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I have to correct myself, having checked his DOB. Topping was born on 1st October 1866 so would have just turned 22 at the time of Kelly's death; by extension, he'd have been 18 or 19 when he claimed to have first made her acquaintance when the latter was living down Ratcliff way.

Thanks for correcting that.. I was getting confused by all this teenage stuff!

I think he must have known her that long, because if he didn't it's about the easiest thing to get caught lying out about. As in- you couldn't have known her for three years because she just moved here from Ireland 8 months ago. That sort of thing.

I also think the comfortableness he had with making up this big lie would also be partially because he did know her rather well.

Bottom line, he may have lied about everything that night, or parts of it, even slim chance he was telling the truth. The only thing we DO know is that hutch engaged in stalking behavior. Classic serial killer behavior.
Oh and most serial killers start their kills in their early twenties.
Hint. Hint.

[GUT]

The Times 13 Nov 1888

I think is where military bearing pops up for the first time.

[Wickerman]

I just recall it being posited a few years ago. It may have been in pre-online Ripperologist. It's just that times were tough and, as we know, people were turned away from lodging houses for not having the price of a bed so it seems strange that McCarthy would allow Kelly to get weeks behind in her rent when he could have chucked her and her property out in 10 minutes and probably had someone else occupying the room just as quickly.
I'm not particularly suggesting anything. Just seems a bit strange.

Regards

HS

Ah yes, so the suggestion was a result of believing the debt was true.

The Wednesday before the murder Kelly had bought a 1/2 p. candle at McCarthy's shop. If Kelly was in so much debt, wouldn't you think McCarthy would have took her money with a, "thankyou Mary, I'll take that towards your debt"?