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  • Originally posted by GUT View Post
    The Times 13 Nov 1888
    I think is where military bearing pops up for the first time.
    Thanks, GUT - that's cleared that one up. "Military appearance" and "apparently of the labouring class", saith the Times. Many young men "apparently of the labouring class" would be rather strapping, I daresay, hence the military appearance.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
      I just recall it being posited a few years ago. It may have been in pre-online Ripperologist. It's just that times were tough and, as we know, people were turned away from lodging houses for not having the price of a bed so it seems strange that McCarthy would allow Kelly to get weeks behind in her rent when he could have chucked her and her property out in 10 minutes and probably had someone else occupying the room just as quickly.
      I'm not particularly suggesting anything. Just seems a bit strange.

      Regards

      HS
      It occurs to me that, far from being a scam to profit from Kelly's murder, McCarthy's declaration of her being so far in arrears may have been his way of showing himself in a good light - that he put the welfare of his tenants above monetary gain.

      Comment


      • Yes, "Military Appearance" seems to be from an agency story. It appeared in the Times, Daily News, Evening News and Pall Mall Gazette, all on the 13th. Whereas, most others stayed with "of the labouring class".
        Otherwise, the wording of their articles are pretty much identical.

        Perhaps only meaning he was clean cut, neatly turned out, upright posture?
        Last edited by Wickerman; 05-28-2017, 04:37 AM.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          The only thing we DO know is that hutch engaged in stalking behavior.
          Strictly speaking, we know that he claimed to tail Kelly back to Miller's Court and claimed to have kept her room under surveillance for a rather long time. Like you, Abby, I find these acts to be somewhat obsessive, but whether he actually did them is open to question.

          All I believe we know for certain about Hutch is that he waited until three days after the murder before coming forward with his remarkable story.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            I recall the 'military bearing' description but I thought that I'd confused it with the description of 'The Pensioner,' connected to Annie Chapman.
            HS
            You're right, the Pensioner wad indeed also described as of military appearance, by Tim Donovan the lodging house deputy. Interestingly, he admitted that he'd not been in the military at all, so appearances can be deceptive.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by andy1867 View Post
              39 pages...I'm quite proud of meself
              Albeit I haven't added much....
              I did once bat through an innings for 15 in a Sheffield midweek cricket game..
              Feels a bit like that.....
              can beat that easily, 12* in 52 overs, pening the batting. we were 17-7 and got a draw.


              Steve

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                Perhaps only meaning he was clean cut, neatly turned out, upright posture?
                That's how I read it, Jon.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Strictly speaking, we know that he claimed to tail Kelly back to Miller's Court and claimed to have kept her room under surveillance for a rather long time.
                  His focused attention, from the first sightings, following him and waiting so long in Dorset Street, indicate to me his obsession was with this character, not Mary.

                  All I believe we know for certain about Hutch is that he waited until three days after the murder before coming forward with his remarkable story.
                  If his intentions had been criminal (to mug the man), this may have caused him to delay coming forward - he couldn't justify his actions without giving away his intentions?

                  Either that or, because the press were all over the place with Kelly's time of death, Hutchinson, like many others believed she was murdered after 9:00 am in the morning.
                  That was a popular belief over the weekend. So, obviously his sighting at 2:00 am would have had no bearing on her murder.
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    His focused attention, from the first sightings, following him and waiting so long in Dorset Street, indicate to me his obsession was with this character, not Mary.

                    If his intentions had been criminal (to mug the man), this may have caused him to delay coming forward - he couldn't justify his actions without giving away his intentions?
                    I wasn't making any judgments about what his actions, only that he claimed to do these things. I was just pointing out that we don't actuallly know that he did any of it, and all we know for certain about Hutchinson is that he waited three days before coming forward with his story.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                      You're right, the Pensioner wad indeed also described as of military appearance, by Tim Donovan the lodging house deputy. Interestingly, he admitted that he'd not been in the military at all, so appearances can be deceptive.
                      They certainly can. I don't know if it's just me but when someone is described as having 'military appearance,' or a 'military bearing,' it's usually connected to someone older? I've always had the impression that it's usually a description of an 'old soldier.' Someone older who still walks with his back straight and his chest out for eg.

                      There's no point being made here. It just shows how phrases have connotations.

                      Regards
                      HS
                      Regards

                      Herlock




                      “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                      “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                      “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                      “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                      “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                        They certainly can. I don't know if it's just me but when someone is described as having 'military appearance,' or a 'military bearing,' it's usually connected to someone older?
                        The phrase "military appearance" (as used wrt Hutchinson) doesn't connote age to me. It merely suggests a fit, well-built man of any age, possibly with a trim moustache and a neat haircut.
                        Last edited by Sam Flynn; 05-28-2017, 05:53 AM.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                          I just recall it being posited a few years ago. It may have been in pre-online Ripperologist. It's just that times were tough and, as we know, people were turned away from lodging houses for not having the price of a bed so it seems strange that McCarthy would allow Kelly to get weeks behind in her rent when he could have chucked her and her property out in 10 minutes and probably had someone else occupying the room just as quickly.
                          I'm not particularly suggesting anything. Just seems a bit strange.

                          Regards

                          HS
                          Hello H.S.,

                          Being behind in the rent was likely the nature of the beast for so many Whitechapel residents. McCarthy probably felt that Mary had a history of eventually paying so why go to all the trouble of evicting her only to get another tenant who would probably fall behind in the rent but whom he couldn't be sure would come up with it at some point? It is also possible that he was willing to give a little leeway for an attractive young woman or that they managed to work out a quid pro quo at times.

                          c.d.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
                            Hello H.S.,

                            Being behind in the rent was likely the nature of the beast for so many Whitechapel residents. McCarthy probably felt that Mary had a history of eventually paying so why go to all the trouble of evicting her only to get another tenant who would probably fall behind in the rent but whom he couldn't be sure would come up with it at some point? It is also possible that he was willing to give a little leeway for an attractive young woman or that they managed to work out a quid pro quo at times.

                            c.d.
                            Hi cd

                            It just seems a lot. How could any Whitechapel prostitute come up with 26s to clear the arrears. I agree though that maybe an 'arrangement,' could be the answer.

                            HS
                            Last edited by Herlock Sholmes; 05-28-2017, 07:01 AM. Reason: Missed a bit
                            Regards

                            Herlock




                            “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                            “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                            “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                            “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                            “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              The phrase "military appearance" (as used wrt Hutchinson) doesn't connote age to me. It merely suggests a fit, well-built man of any age, possibly with a trim moustache and a neat haircut.
                              It's probably just a personal thing Sam. I always assume an older man (in this case, incorrectly) To be honest, until we discussed it on here, I'd forgotten how young Hutchinson was. I think that, subconsciously, I'd recalled the photograph and taken that to be how he looked at the time.

                              Regards
                              HS
                              Regards

                              Herlock




                              “ Herlock is the cleverest man that I’ve ever met.” - Stephen Hawking.
                              “ I wish that I could have achieved half as much as Herlock.”- Neil Armstrong.
                              “ What a voice Herlock has.” - Luciano Pavarotti.
                              “ I wish that I could dump Harry for Herlock.” - Meghan Markle.
                              “ I know that it’s not good to be jealous but I just can’t help it.” - John Holmes.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                                Does anyone think that Hutchinson's age might have influenced his description of Astrakhan Man? No doubt someone living in that environment would have had to grow up quickly but still. Our life experiences do often influence our judgments. It's only a 'maybe' but I wonder if seeing someone 'slightly better off' could have been exaggerated by a 22 year old to give the impression of someone 'much better off?' It's not a particularly important point but I just wondered if his age/inexperience led to a view of a man dressed in finery when AM was actually something like a shopkeeper in his Sunday best?
                                Regards
                                HS
                                Seems a reasonable suggestion to me.
                                "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

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