Hutchinsons statement....

[Joshua Rogan]

Well. Hutchinson was an unemployed labourer at the time, he was hardly likely to be carrying around that sort of cash. Best to ask for a realistic amount, I'd have thought.

[Sam Flynn]

Does Hutchinson ever say how well he and Kelly were acquainted.

He didn't, and it remains to be established how (or whether) he did make her acquaintance. Hutchinson and his family were based in Eltham since at least the 1881 census, and his father and sister had moved to Lee (a couple of miles west of Eltham) by 1891.

When Hutchinson flew the nest we don't know, but it obviously would have a bearing on his claim to have known Kelly since his late teens; given that his family seem to have been based in Kent at the relevant time. If only there were an annual census, we'd have a better chance of knowing for sure, of course.

[Flower and Dean]

Does anyone think that Hutchinson's age might have influenced his description of Astrakhan Man? No doubt someone living in that environment would have had to grow up quickly but still. Our life experiences do often influence our judgments. It's only a 'maybe' but I wonder if seeing someone 'slightly better off' could have been exaggerated by a 22 year old to give the impression of someone 'much better off?' It's not a particularly important point but I just wondered if his age/inexperience led to a view of a man dressed in finery when AM was actually something like a shopkeeper in his Sunday best?
Regards
HS

Good point. That hadn't ocurred to me before.

I'm not projecting values, as such. I just find it the idea that a young man was out at 2AM scouting for girls too "convenient". By all means accept his story that he had no crib for a bed, if you like, but I find that rather too convenient also.

He wasn't out scouting for girls, necessarily. We know he was out and about at that hour but the reason he gives was that he was locked out of the place where he was staying. He could well have been, but we don't know for certain if he was or if he was just wandering around to pass the time, maybe find some place (not necessarily a lady's house) to sleep or someone to borrow money from.

Why are those factors too convenient? We know they were not particularly unusual or out of the realm of possibility. You need only read about the last hours of some of the other victims to see that yes, not having a place to stay when a late hour rolls around was a real thing that could happen.

[Sam Flynn]

Why are those factors too convenient?

Hutchinson's story is full of convenient devices, for example:


Hutchinson happens to be in Commercial Street at just the point when Mary Kelly, who happens to be an acquaintance, turns up and asks for money... then she happens to meet a suspicious stranger of remarkable appearance, whose face Hutchinson remembers in detail because the stranger happens to walk under a lamp-post where Hutchinson happens to be standing and, furthermore, the stranger happens to look straight into Hutchinson's face; Hutchinson then follows them and hangs around for 45 minutes and wanders around all night because he happens not to have a bed to go to.

There are others.

[Paddy]

anyone know anything about this chap? Dated Novemer 1887

Pat.....

[Harry D]

Wasn't Kelly massively in arrears? Would such a tiny amount have made a difference?

HS

McCarthy sent Indian Harry to MJK's place the very next day to collect the rent. She might have wanted to turn one quick trick that night to have something to show for herself.

[Joshua Rogan]

anyone know anything about this chap? Dated Novemer 1887

Pat.....

That is a very interesting find indeed! 'Sugar' George, the prizefighter, eh? I know nothing about the chap, but you only have to look at the name of the pub to know it was our guy.......probably.
Top find.

[Flower and Dean]

Hutchinson's story is full of convenient devices, for example:


Hutchinson happens to be in Commercial Street at just the point when Mary Kelly, who happens to be an acquaintance, turns up and asks for money... then she happens to meet a suspicious stranger of remarkable appearance, whose face Hutchinson remembers in detail because the stranger happens to walk under a lamp-post where Hutchinson happens to be standing and, furthermore, the stranger happens to look straight into Hutchinson's face; Hutchinson then follows them and hangs around for 45 minutes and wanders around all night because he happens not to have a bed to go to.

There are others.

If anything, the only thing(s) that strike me as very convenient are the things related to the strange man -- how much detail he remembered, that he just happened to decide to follow them, etc..

The rest doesn't seem to weird. We know from the case of the other victims that people did sometimes stay out until late due to not having a place to sleep. We also know it wasn't uncommon for people to run into their friends and acquaintances. Some of the other victims were also seen by people they knew, and Kelly herself was seen earlier by others.

I could buy that he saw her and maybe saw a man with her, even if he was lying (to get attention or to draw it away from himself).

[Sam Flynn]

The rest doesn't seem to weird. We know from the case of the other victims that people did sometimes stay out until late due to not having a place to sleep. We also know it wasn't uncommon for people to run into their friends and acquaintances. Some of the other victims were also seen by people they knew, and Kelly herself was seen earlier by others.

Yes, but none of the victims met a friend and her apparent killer within mere minutes, and within sight, of each other on the same stretch of road. And I've just mentioned two of the remarkable "planetary alignments" that would need to happen in order to make Hutchinson's story work.

[Observer]

anyone know anything about this chap? Dated Novemer 1887

Pat.....

The horse and groom is still in existence as a Public House, it's now called the Bar Locks, had a drink in there quite a few times.

[Wickerman]

It would have been a lot more convenient for Hutch if he'd had a sixpence in his pocket. It would also be a lot more "convenient" if she was a stranger to him, people tend to interact more with people they pass on the street if they know each other.
Does Hutchinson ever say how well he and Kelly were acquainted, other than he "knew" her (in the biblical sense?)? They may have been good friends, former lovers, on first name or merely nodding terms....for all we know he knew her only as that Kelly woman who was always cadging money from him on the street.

He may have been acquainted with her for the past three years, or had seen her around occasionally for the past three years, or first spoke to her three years ago.
We cannot read too much into his claim when we do not know the circumstances.
So, no-one should concoct a theory around what we don't know (like that would ever happen )

[Wickerman]

I thought so. She was 29s in arrears so the amount that she asked for would have been a drop in the ocean. I always wondered why McCarthy allowed such a debt?

Regards

HS

We don't know if the debt was genuine though, or just a ploy by McCarthy to get some cash out of her relatives when they come to her funeral.
Usually, family like to settle matters, public image and all that....
He may have been just a tad opportunistic.

[Wickerman]

Hutchinson's story is full of convenient devices, for example:


Hutchinson happens to be in Commercial Street at just the point when Mary Kelly, who happens to be an acquaintance, turns up and asks for money... then she happens to meet a suspicious stranger of remarkable appearance, whose face Hutchinson remembers in detail because the stranger happens to walk under a lamp-post where Hutchinson happens to be standing and, furthermore, the stranger happens to look straight into Hutchinson's face; Hutchinson then follows them and hangs around for 45 minutes and wanders around all night because he happens not to have a bed to go to.

There are others.

That only sounds like Gareth trying hard to convince Gareth.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Does anyone really think that Astrakhan Man after being seen with MJK by Hutchinson who, according to him, actually stopped to look into his face, would then go on to murder her?

Regards

HS

[Wickerman]

Does anyone really think that Astrakhan Man after being seen with MJK by Hutchinson who, according to him, actually stopped to look into his face, would then go on to murder her?

Regards

HS

I'll excuse myself from this question as I don't think Astrachan was her killer.